AI is helping me decide whether to buy a Leica M10!

[joe bosak]

If you have to ask for guidance, you don't really want it.

 

[Mcary]

Wonder what AI would say about my plans to sell my M10 to get money for film. As my M10 has set on the shelf for 2 years I've decide to take it along with my Elmarit 21mm and Voightlander 75 2.5 LTM to an upcoming event held by Used PhotoPro to see what I can get for them. This will leave me with a M2, 28, 35, 50 and 85mm lens. For shooting wider than 28mm I bought a Nikon FM with a 24mm F 2.8 and will probable get a couple other lens to go with it. Kind of planning on using the M2 to shoot B&W film with while keeping the FM loaded with color film. Also have my Yashica Mat 124g when I want more resolution than the M2 or FM offers

 

[Rob-F]

Wonder what AI would say about my plans to sell my M10 to get money for film. As my M10 has set on the shelf for 2 years I've decide to take it along with my Elmarit 21mm and Voightlander 75 2.5 LTM to an upcoming event held by Used PhotoPro to see what I can get for them. This will leave me with a M2, 28, 35, 50 and 85mm lens. For shooting wider than 28mm I bought a Nikon FM with a 24mm F 2.8 and will probable get a couple other lens to go with it. Kind of planning on using the M2 to shoot B&W film with while keeping the FM loaded with color film. Also have my Yashica Mat 124g when I want more resolution than the M2 or FM offers

And I have decided to shoot pictures this fall with my film cameras, as well. I want to shoot at least one roll in every film camera I own. In fact I'm adding more film cameras: an M3 from Used Photo Pro; and a 3g from Japan--both in beautiful condition. So far, I have shot one roll in the 3g. I plan to develop and print once the weather gets too cold for outdoor comfort. So my inclination to avoid buying an M10 is partly to avoid the temptation of too much digital shooting. Or, as Tom A would have said, "Back to basics!"

 

[Rob-F]

From "AI, tell me what camera to use" to "AI, tell me what to photograph" it seems to be a small step in the "stop-thinking-for-yourself" development society is going through these days.

Yes, an over-use of AI certainly could be a mistake. Too much of anything is no good. But I see no mistake in using AI to get a broad survey, sampling, and integration and summary of what has been said so far. From that starting point point, one can agree or disagree. It was helpful that AI pointed out that there are certain things I like about my M9 (true), and things I might dislike about an M10 (likely).

 

[Rob-F]

View attachment 4878957

The dawn of the post-literate society

And the end of civilisation

open.substack.com

It’s not development, it’s regression.

Yes it is true that young people don't read as much as they should. It is also true that AI can be a valuable tool, if used appropriately. I think these are separate issues. I don't think we have any post-literate people on RFF. There's nothing intellectual about refusing to use a useful tool, where it fits. See my note to Harry the K.

 

[JeffS7444]

Google's AI served up the "truth" it's algorithms determined most likely to please, based on the data which Google has previously collected from you, including your search and browser history, your use of other Google services, and sites where Google Analytics are used. Do you recall the exact query you used? It might be fun to see what results others get.

 

[JeffS7444]

Using the DuckDuckGo web browser configured to purge history and cookies whenever I close the app, I queried Google's AI in what I thought was a more neutral tone: "What are the pros and cons of replacing a Leica M9 camera with an M10?". Below is it's output. Interestingly, there's still the reference to "film like" CCD qualities, which I disagree with, but otherwise, the bullet points seem pretty objective.

Moving from a Leica M9 to an M10 offers significant improvements in technical performance and modern handling, while sacrificing the M9's distinct CCD sensor "film-like" color rendering. Your decision depends on whether you prioritize modern usability and low-light performance over the nostalgic image character of the M9.

Pros of replacing an M9 with an M10

Feature

Improvement in the M10

• Low-light performance: The M10 's CMOS sensor provides drastically better high ISO performance, with usable images up to ISO 6400 or higher, compared to the M9 's practical limit of ISO 800-1600. The M10's images have less noise and better color retention at higher sensitivities.
• Dynamic range: The M10 offers a more versatile dynamic range, particularly in shadow recovery. This gives you more flexibility to adjust exposures in post-processing without losing detail.
• Ergonomics and build: The M10 is slightly slimmer and lighter than the M9, with a refined, film-M-like profile that many find more comfortable to handle. It also offers better weather sealing.
• Speed and responsiveness: The M10 has a larger, faster buffer and a more responsive Maestro II image processor, making continuous shooting less likely to cause camera lock-ups.
• Viewfinder: The M10 has a larger viewfinder with higher magnification, better eye relief, and 2m-optimized frame lines for more accurate framing and focusing.

 

[rfaspen]

I am reminded that there are different kinds of AI. The kinds that we typically interact with are not very good. AI systems trained exclusively on an "esoteric" and relatively narrow scientific discipline do much better. Public facing "general" AI is hardly ever better than the billions of potentially whacko people on the Internet that it trains on. Thus it will frequently be wrong, sometimes very very wrong. I avoid all AI whenever possible......but that's getting harder. That means I have to work harder as a critical thinker. There are fewer and fewer critical thinkers in society. (Thankfully, at least my son is).

 

[JeffS7444]

For fun, I dug further, asking "Do you have any data regarding the M10's weather sealing? Please cite sources."

There is no specific IP (Ingress Protection) rating for the Leica M10, and it is not fully weather-sealed like Leica's more rugged SL-series cameras. However, Leica does state that the M10 has some degree of protection against dust and "light showers".

Official statements and reviews

• Leica's claims: On its website, Leica states that the M10 offers "further protection against light showers, dust and bad weather" via special rubber seals. It is not advertised as being "weather sealed" in the same way as cameras with a formal IP rating.
• Expert reviews: Many camera reviews confirm this level of water resistance. For example, Steve Huff's 2017 review noted that the M10 had seals to keep rain out and was improved over previous M models, but was still not designed for heavy downpours. Similarly, ExpertPhotography describes the camera as "pretty well weather sealed" but advises against standing in a downpour.

🤔

 

[Rob-F]

Using the DuckDuckGo web browser configured to purge history and cookies whenever I close the app, I queried Google's AI in what I thought was a more neutral tone: "What are the pros and cons of replacing a Leica M9 camera with an M10?". Below is it's output. Interestingly, there's still the reference to "film like" CCD qualities, which I disagree with, but otherwise, the bullet points seem pretty objective.

Right! The answer depends on how we ask the question. I was intentionally biasing AI to lean towards avoiding the M10; intending to later try going in the opposite direction. Here it is:

AI Overview


To own both a Leica M9 and an M10 is to possess the past and present of digital M photography, not in conflict, but in perfect harmony
. Think of the M10 not as a replacement for your beloved M9, but as an expansion of your creative toolkit, allowing you to choose the perfect instrument for the moment.
Here’s why adding an M10 to your collection is the right move.

The creative expansion
You know and love the M9's signature CCD sensor, a cult classic for its distinct, film-like color rendering and organic feel at base ISO. The M10 doesn't replace that magic; it complements it with a modern CMOS sensor.

• A dual-sensor workflow: The combination allows you to approach a project with intention. You can use the M9's CCD magic for bright, nostalgic daylight shots and switch to the M10 for modern sharpness and speed when the light fades.
• Low-light liberation: Your M9 is wonderful in good light, but its low-light performance is a limitation. The M10 offers a revolutionary jump in high-ISO capability, with usable files at much higher sensitivities. This allows you to embrace ambient light in dusk or nighttime street scenes where your M9 would struggle.
• A backup you can depend on: Any professional will tell you that a second body is insurance. With Leica's service wait times, having a second, more robust body like the M10 ensures you are never sidelined by a camera malfunction.

The practical upgrade
While your M9 has a certain old-school charm, the M10’s advancements improve the shooting experience in countless ways.

• Improved handling: The M10’s slimmer body mirrors the classic film M cameras, offering a more comfortable and balanced grip.
• Quieter, faster operation: The M10 is significantly more responsive, with a faster buffer for continuous shooting and a quiet, silky-smooth shutter that's far more discreet for street photography.
• Modern convenience: Key upgrades like a dramatically improved high-resolution LCD screen, built-in Wi-Fi, and a dedicated top-plate ISO dial streamline your workflow and make shooting a more fluid experience. You also get features like Live View with Focus Peaking, which is incredibly useful for precise focus with wide-angle lenses or for still-life compositions.
• Better battery life: Compared to the M9, the M10's battery is far more reliable, freeing you from constant battery swaps during a day of shooting.

The ultimate reason
Beyond the specs, this is about expanding your photographic vision. Adding an M10 isn't about replacing the charm of your M9; it's about giving yourself more choices. It's the difference between having one masterful tool and a complete, complementary set. The M9 is a beautiful, film-like experience, while the M10 is the modern benchmark. The two together are an unstoppable creative pair.

 

[Rob-F]

And, as before, the "Dive Deeper:"

talk me into adding a Leica M10 to the M9 I already own.


Yes, you should add a Leica M10 to your collection. While your M9 offers a special, classic digital shooting experience, the M10 will be a powerful and reliable companion, giving you the best of both the classic and modern M worlds.

For peace of mind and reliability

• Averting sensor failure. The M9's CCD sensor is known for its susceptibility to "sensor rot" or corrosion, which can lead to image degradation and complete failure. Leica officially ended its repair program for the M9 sensor in 2020, meaning any repair will be at your own risk through third-party services. A corrosion-proof CMOS sensor in the M10 eliminates this known hardware defect and ensures your camera will be a reliable tool for years to come.
• Modern handling and speed. The M10 uses the faster Maestro II image processor, which offers more responsive operation and a much faster buffer. The M10 also has a much more modern menu system and a better, higher-resolution LCD.

For unmatched low-light performance

• Vastly improved ISO. The M9's high ISO performance is notoriously poor, with usable images generally limited to ISO 1600 or below. The M10's CMOS sensor and Maestro II processor, by contrast, offer a standard ISO range that extends to 50,000. This gives you the freedom to shoot in extremely low-light conditions without worrying about excessive noise or losing the iconic Leica look.
• Enhanced dynamic range. With its superior dynamic range, the M10 offers more flexibility in post-processing. You can recover significantly more detail from the shadows compared to the M9, and the extended range also helps preserve highlight information.

For a more refined user experience

• Slimmer, more familiar body. The M10 was intentionally designed to be the slimmest digital M ever, with a body depth similar to film M cameras like the M7. This makes it feel more familiar in your hands, particularly if you came to the M system from film.
• Quieter, more subtle shutter. The M10 features a quieter shutter sound than the M9, allowing for more discreet and unobtrusive shooting, which is a major advantage for street and documentary photography.
• Improved viewfinder. The viewfinder on the M10 has been redesigned for a more comfortable shooting experience. The field of view is 30% larger, and eye relief has been increased by 50%, which is especially helpful for photographers who wear glasses.
• Integrated ISO dial. The addition of a dedicated ISO dial on the top plate allows you to set all three key exposure parameters (aperture, shutter speed, and ISO) without taking your eye from the viewfinder.

The best of both worlds
Adding the M10 doesn't mean retiring your M9. Instead, it expands your toolkit. You can use your M9 for that special, high-contrast, "slide film" look that its CCD sensor is famous for, and turn to the M10 for all other shooting—especially in challenging light. Your M10 will be your reliable workhorse, while your M9 becomes your beloved specialty camera for those magical moments that only it can capture.

 

[JeffS7444]

When pressed to cite sources for the M9 "filmic" or "magical" claims, Google cited a writer on Medium, a Facebook CCD-enthusiast group, Reddit, and once again, Steve Huff (why?). But even when I stated that I was not a fan of the old sensor, it persisted in mentioning some aspects of the older camera in a positive, or at least a nostalgic, light, though it toned-down it's emphasis somewhat.

For grins, I resubmitted my original query to DuckDuckGo.ai (GPT-40 mini) and got what seemed like a far more objective assessment.

What are the pros and cons of replacing a Leica M9 camera with an M10?

Here's a detailed comparison of replacing a Leica M9 with an M10:

Sensor and Image Quality
The M10 offers a 24 MP CMOS sensor compared to the M9's 18 MP CCD. This upgrade results in better resolution and improved high-ISO performance. Photographers shooting in low light will find the M10 significantly better.

Design and Ergonomics
The M10 is slimmer and more ergonomically designed, making it more comfortable for extended use. While some users might miss the bulk of the M9, the sleekness of the M10 is a welcome change for many.

Connectivity and Usability
The M10 includes built-in Wi-Fi, which allows for easier image sharing and transfer. This is a step up from the M9, which has very limited connectivity options.

Battery and Performance
The M10 has an improved battery life, allowing for more shooting before needing a charge. However, it utilizes a different battery than the M9, necessitating additional purchases if you switch.

Overall Considerations
Upgrading to the M10 brings numerous improvements, especially in image quality and usability. However, the changes come at a higher financial cost, and some users might prefer the nostalgic aspects of the M9.

Would you like to know more about any specific features or tech specs?

Overall, I much prefer this, save for iffy bits about potential for greater M10 noise at high ISO and potential for wifi connectivity issues, compared to M9 which simply doesn't offer extended ISO or any sort of wireless connectivity. It is technically correct, but kind of missing the point in these details.

 

[santino]

The problem with current AI models is that they are doubt inducing. As long as you are knowledgable on a given topic everything is fine, but what are instant answers worth when one has to verify every line?

 

[Rob-F]

If, for "doubt inducing," I substitute "thought provoking;” for "Instant answers, " "ideas to consider," then we are in agreement. I see AI as worth consulting, for what it may be worth. What I choose to act on is up to my judgement, as in any decision. My decision for now is to shoot film this fall. This week, I have added, not an M10 to my collection, but an M3 and a iiig! (Like I really needed any more film Leicas)! I just wanted them. I just developed a roll of Tri-X shot in one of my M2s. I'll see about printing it tomorrow! In my real darkroom!