AI is helping me decide whether to buy a Leica M10!

[Rob-F]

By using it you are feeding a future where you can no longer easily search the free web, and all you can get simply is out put from an ‘AI’ which is not intelligent, it is a large language model that cannot think, it has no capacity to think or discriminate, it just tells you whatever nonsense that is popular. It’s worse than post-literate, it’s post-thought.

I Did the AI search as an experiment, just to see what would happen; then posted it when the resulting AI response seemed plausible enough to be worth posting for comments. Comments such as the above have brought into focus the similarity of AI to the Trump administration's war on certain universities, as well as the GOP's bias against higher education in general: the public might only learn what some entity thinks fit for us to learn or know.

 

[Godfrey]

I have no use for ChatGPT AI bots at all.

Regards the M9: I *never* liked what its JPEG output looked like and always turned it off, leaving it set to raw output only. The raw output was good, if not anything particularly remarkable. The rest of the camera ... meh. A little slow in operation, a little noisy/weird in the shutter recock, a little limited on battery capacity. When mine came up with the infamous sensor corrosion issue, I sent it to Leica for evaluation and, on approval, repair, and they offered me the full resale value back as trade-in against an M-P typ 240 purchase, which is what I went with. Regards "film-like" ... huh. I don't know what that means, it just seemed another digital camera to me (I'd already had a decade or more worth of experiences with digital cameras, and about eight-nine years of DSLR digital cameras with raw capture from Canon, Pentax, Nikon, Olympus, and Panasonic...).

The M-P 240 I replaced the M9 with was simply a far better camera in every way. Better sensor, faster operation, much more battery, more responsive controls, better dynamic range, etc etc. The M-D typ 262 was about the same as the 240, but with slightly better dynamic range (very slightly).

The M10-R and M10 Monochrom, to me, simply moved the M in a quantum increment up the scale from the M 240/262 with both more response operation and better control layout, and they have a significantly better pair of sensors (dynamic range and resolution). All in an overall camera package that has been nicely trimmed down in size as well, with only a minor reduction in overall battery capacity as a consequence.

So, my suggestion is to ignore the idiotic AI bots and actually talk to PEOPLE who have and use the M10 series cameras instead. Rent one too, if you can manage it. Picking a high-end camera based on AI bots' suggestions is, as far as I'm concerned, like asking a bright but naïve 11 year old boy "what is the best automobile to drive?"

G

 

[peterm1]

In a broad sense, this AI has summarized my thought processes regarding every decision I have pretty much ever made about a camera purchase in my life. I pretty much have ALWAYS bought second hand last generation cameras - the main exception being when I buy a camera from two or more generations past.

(Oh, in the interest of openness I should admit that once I bought a NEW Fujifilm camera - the Fujifilm X - T20 in fact. Though in this case this was "new old stock" that had not sold for some reason and I got it for cheap because the X-T30 had already been on the shelf for probably 2 years and was soon, itself to be replaced by whatever came next). So in a way it counts as second hand. The thing is that, for most people the latest and greatest gee-whiz features offered by every new camera generation means very little in point of actual fact regarding results and usability for most people. My most recent purchase of a camera entailed me buying a Leica SL. This was the original 10 year old Leica SL and was an emotional purchase (not a logical one) based on me wanting to sell off my old Leica M8 which had become a little unusable to me due to the viewfinder and my diminishing eyesight - which would then allow me to put this money towards the SL. I can see no reason to upgrade to a more recent model.

So - I never thought I would say this but "well done AI!"

 

[ellisson]

I Did the AI search as an experiment, just to see what would happen; then posted it when the resulting AI response seemed plausible enough to be worth posting for comments. Comments such as the above have brought into focus the similarity of AI to the Trump administration's war on certain universities, as well as the GOP's bias against higher education in general: the public might only learn what some entity thinks fit for us to learn or know.

If the U.S. government takes control of google or other AI sources on the web, e.g., by buying up shares and influence in these companies (as has already been done with several companies) with public money for the enrichment of the executive branch and further control of information, then George Orwell's vision of a thought controlled future in his book, 1984, would be unfolding before us.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

AI reads my mind.

 

[Disappointed_Horse]

You young whippersnappers with your fancy AIs and LLMs! Why, back in my day, we had to use our actual brains to talk ourselves into unnecessary camera gear purchases!

 

[Rob-F]

If the U.S. government takes control of google or other AI sources on the web, e.g., by buying up shares and influence in these companies (as has already been done with several companies) with public money for the enrichment of the executive branch and further control of information, then George Orwell's vision of a thought controlled future in his book, 1984, would be unfolding before us.

I think it already has unfolded. The GOP already has control of the supreme court; is sending federal troops into cities that don't want them; is shooting up boats and killing people without authorization or due process. In fact almost everything he does is without due process. The law has become irrelevant. 1984? We are there, and then some.

 

[Rob-F]

AI reads my mind.

In a good way, or a bad way, Kostya? Can you say more about that?

 

[JeffS7444]

I find AI useful as a natural-language front-end for search engines: Microsoft's CoPilot cites sources by default (good), and I'm liking DuckDuckGo's flavor of GPT-40 mini, which gave me a rather thought-provoking response to my query: "Is any AI currently capable of "directly experiencing the world", rather than relying on internet content?"

Google's consumer-grade product, on the other hand, seems sorta - sludgy? But I'm sure they've dumbed it down plenty, because if they actually revealed how much they know or can infer about all of us, we'd immediately want to shut them down 😆

 

[Ko.Fe.]

In a good way, or a bad way, Kostya? Can you say more about that?

No black or white here.

I see no reason to spend money on M10 if M9 works.

Once my M-E 220 stops working, I'm out. No such money.

 

[Out to Lunch]

No such money.

I recommend the Ostend Casino.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I recommend the Ostend Casino.

I'm not a gambler. Zero interest.

I have been dozen of times in Vegas for convection.
It was direct, very long flights Moscow direct.
One time next to me was broadcast and production magazine publisher.
He spend an hour explaining me how to win in Vegas.
It required overnight stay and attention. Win amount was covering flight and stay.
But I was paid by work for it. Including good sleep.

 

[Harry the K]

Why, back in my day, we had to use our actual brains to talk ourselves into unnecessary camera gear purchases!

and the talking took no time at all!

 

[Out to Lunch]

I went twice; in Nairobi -won, and in Sochi -lost.

 

[luuca]

Wonder what AI would say about my plans to sell my M10 to get money for film. As my M10 has set on the shelf for 2 years I've decide to take it along with my Elmarit 21mm and Voightlander 75 2.5 LTM to an upcoming event held by Used PhotoPro to see what I can get for them. This will leave me with a M2, 28, 35, 50 and 85mm lens. For shooting wider than 28mm I bought a Nikon FM with a 24mm F 2.8 and will probable get a couple other lens to go with it. Kind of planning on using the M2 to shoot B&W film with while keeping the FM loaded with color film. Also have my Yashica Mat 124g when I want more resolution than the M2 or FM offers

The same.
I think I will sell an almost unused M10-R and stick with my film cameras. My iphone is enough if I need to shot digital.

 

[Disappointed_Horse]

I think it already has unfolded. The GOP already has control of the supreme court; is sending federal troops into cities that don't want them; is shooting up boats and killing people without authorization or due process. In fact almost everything he does is without due process. The law has become irrelevant. 1984? We are there, and then some.

I probably shouldn't say anything other than to note my complete agreement with this. The main difference between the present situation in the U.S. and 1984 is that we carry the telescreens around with us in our pockets.

 

[raid]

I have been using my M9 side by side with the M10. Both can be excellent cameras. The buffer is better in the M10.

 

[Rob-F]

I have been using my M9 side by side with the M10. Both can be excellent cameras. The buffer is better in the M10.

The slowness of the buffer can be annoying, although I usually don't mind waiting. Actually it's the only thing I don't like about the M9. I like the RAW files, the images I get. The JPEGs can be OK at times, but usually the RAW files are better. I don't see why I need more than the 18mps the M9 has. I'm happy with 12! I feel no urgency to get an M10. Lately I'm not sure I want to keep my D750; I rather like my trusty D700. Enough is enough.

 

[ellisson]

My megapixel “cut point” is higher at 24 MP like in the M10 (not the M10R) camera. That said, if I had an M9 camera or especially an M9M, 12 MP would be fine. I don’t do heavy cropping or print very large, so this is “enough”.
OTOH, the lenses are the big draw for me, different vintage ones that work well on digital (M9, M240, M10…SL cameras with adapter...) and film, and are almost always “keepers”.

 

[Rob-F]

I don't know how much patience Y'all will have for this, but I asked another question of the AI genie, on a comparison I'm currently obsessing over; and again, I am impressed with the ability of AI to quickly survey and digest what was out there, and integrate and present the results in a manner that is plausible and pleasant to read.

AI Overview


When comparing the Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.2 and the classic Leica Summilux 50mm f/1.4 (Version 2, also known as Pre-ASPH) at a matched aperture of f/1.4, the Leica generally offers superior micro-contrast and smoother bokeh, while the Voigtländer provides comparable central sharpness and a more textured rendering
. The specific differences in optical performance reflect the different design philosophies of the two lenses.
Sharpness

• Voigtländer 50mm f/1.2 Nokton: The Nokton is noted for good center sharpness at f/1.4, especially at portrait distances. However, reviewers have found that mid-frame and corner performance can be soft at wide apertures due to significant field curvature, which improves only when stopped down considerably.
• Leica Summilux 50mm f/1.4 v2: The Summilux v2 is also capable of being sharp in the center at f/1.4. Similar to the Nokton, it has uneven performance across the frame, with the mid-frame and corners being noticeably softer at f/1.4 compared to the center. Some reviews even indicate that in certain situations, the Leica's uneven sharpness across the frame can be more pronounced than the Voigtländer's.

Rendering and bokeh

• Voigtländer 50mm f/1.2 Nokton: At f/1.4, the Nokton's bokeh has been described as having a contrasty, feathery, or "cotton candy" feel, especially in backlit scenes. The lens can also show some "onion ring" artifacts in bokeh balls at certain sizes. For some users, the rendering has a modern and bold quality, but less character than other lenses.
• Leica Summilux 50mm f/1.4 v2: The Summilux v2 is well-regarded for its signature "Leica glow," a characteristic soft and ethereal rendering at wider apertures. The bokeh is generally described as smoother and creamier than the Nokton's, with excellent tonal transitions. Some photographers prefer this classic rendering for portraits, while others might find the bokeh less distinctive.

Contrast and chromatic aberrations

• Voigtländer 50mm f/1.2 Nokton: As a modern lens, the Nokton offers good contrast, but it exhibits noticeable chromatic aberrations (LoCA, purple and green fringing) and vignetting at f/1.4. The lens has a less "technically perfect" image output than modern Leica ASPH lenses.
• Leica Summilux 50mm f/1.4 v2: The Summilux v2, designed before ASPH elements were widely used, has lower micro-contrast than modern lenses, contributing to its filmic look. Like the Nokton, it will show some chromatic aberrations, but the overall presentation is different due to the lower contrast.

Build and handling

• Voigtländer 50mm f/1.2 Nokton: The Nokton is well-built with a modern design, and it is significantly more affordable than the Leica. The build quality is excellent for its price point.
• Leica Summilux 50mm f/1.4 v2: As a vintage Leica lens, the Summilux v2 is known for its classic build and rendering. It is also one of the most expensive 50mm lenses available, reflecting its collector status.

Conclusion
At f/1.4, the choice between these two lenses comes down to your budget and preferred image aesthetics.

• The Leica Summilux v2 is the choice for photographers who prioritize a classic, dreamy, high-character rendering with smooth, creamy bokeh and excellent micro-contrast, and who have the budget for a vintage Leica lens.
• The Voigtländer 50mm f/1.2 Nokton is the better value, offering excellent center sharpness and a modern, high-contrast look at f/1.4, though with different rendering characteristics and greater optical imperfections.

This is the "Dive Deeper" part:
compare the wide-open performance of cosina voigtlander 50mm f/1.2 to that of Leica Summilux version 2, if both are compared at the same aperture of f/1.4?
When comparing the Voigtlander 50mm f/1.2 Nokton to the vintage Leica 50mm Summilux (Version 2 pre-ASPH) at f/1.4, the key difference is their rendering and character rather than outright sharpness
. The Voigtlander offers a more modern, balanced performance, while the Summilux V2 provides a classic, ethereal look with lower contrast and a distinctive "Leica glow".
Cosina Voigtlander 50mm f/1.2 Nokton
This is a high-performance modern lens designed with advanced optics, including aspherical elements, to deliver a very clean image.

• Performance: At f/1.4, the
  Voigtlander
  is impressively sharp and shows excellent resolution across the frame, especially in the center. Its higher contrast and better aberration control create a more clinical or "perfect" modern rendering.
• Character: The wide-open performance has a slight "glow" from uncorrected spherical aberration that can be appealing for portraits, but it sharpens up significantly by f/2. Bokeh is generally smooth, especially at wider apertures, but lacks the distinct character of the classic Summilux.
• Vignetting and aberrations: It exhibits vignetting and some purple fringing wide open, but these are generally well-controlled for such a fast lens and improve quickly when stopped down.

Leica 50mm Summilux Pre-ASPH (Version 2)
As a vintage lens produced from 1961 to 1995, its optical design prioritizes character and a film-like rendering over technical perfection.

• Performance: At f/1.4, the
  Summilux V2
  is prized for its "dreamy" look and lower contrast, not its technical sharpness. While it can be sharp, especially in the center, it has a softer, more ethereal image quality compared to the
  Voigtlander
  .
• Character: It is most famous for its signature "Leica glow"—a soft, organic halo around bright highlights that is unique to the older optical formula. The rendering is often described as more artistic, particularly for portraits, and produces a creamy, non-distracting bokeh.
• Vignetting and aberrations: The Summilux V2 shows more pronounced vignetting at f/1.4 and is more susceptible to flare and chromatic aberrations, which are part of its "character".
• Voigtlander 50mm f/1.2 II Leica M Asph
  $1,149.00
• Leica 50 Summilux V2
  $2,495.00

Which lens is right for you?
Your choice depends on your creative preference:

• Choose the
  Voigtlander
  if: You value high-level, consistent optical performance, modern rendering, and excellent sharpness at an affordable price.
• Choose the
  Summilux V2
  if: You prioritize a nostalgic, classic film aesthetic with characterful flaws, and the distinctive "Leica glow" is essential to your vision.