Alternatives for book printing — or make a zine?

[Nowhereman]

My understanding is that Blurb and similar print-on-demand companies use Fujifilm Indigo digital printers or the equivalent, which don't allow for page-by-page image control and easily fall out of calibration during a print run. As these printers simply don't provide the "professional" quality of offset printers they are best for printing personal books or book dummies. In contrast, offset printers rival photo prints in quality but require minimum runs of 250-500 books. That obviously requires a substantial upfront printing cost as well as posing distribution and marketing issues, if you don't have a publisher.

For printing only a few copies one could get good quality with inkjet printers like the Epson SCP800 or SCP5000 and double-sided paper, though that would involve dealing with "imposition" (arrangement of the printed product's pages on the printer's sheet or roll) and with binding and covers.

I've been thinking about printing a book project on an inkjet printer and breaking it up into three issues of a "zine" that I would print on demand. Instead of binding, the zine could be stapled. Also, I thought that the third issue could be sold with the option of buying a plastic slip case with the title on the spine. But these are only thoughts...

Any suggestions or thoughts?
_______________
Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

 

[PKR]

Just curious, are you thinking of doing this project to generate money? Or, just to publish for the sake of "publishing", i.e. vanity publishing?

You might consider consulting someone like Elizabeth Avedon if serious publishing is your goal.

Good luck with your project.

 

[Nowhereman]

PKR - the goal is to find a publisher or, failing that, to get the work out to an appropriate audience.

 

[cz23]

If you are using InDesign, I thought imposition capability was built in. If not, I'm sure there's a plug-in. Of course, PDFs can be imposed. But if it's few enough pages to staple, I would probably just lay it out in the imposed flow.

I've created books of poems like this. Rather than stapling, I sewed the binding, which looked really nice. You'll also need to be concerned with trimming because of what happens when you fold a stack of paper. Kinkos trimmed mine very precisely.

How many pages are you thinking? I'm not sure how folding good photo paper would work.

Good luck with it. Handmade books are very special, and you'll be guaranteed the print quality you want.

John

 

[tunalegs]

I know a lot of people who've made their own books, printed, bound, trimmed, at home. It can be fun if you enjoy craft and really want to create a limited edition art book that you have complete control over.

Other than that, if you're printing B&W and want true monochrome prints, look for a short-run printer that specializes in printing comic books, they will print true B&W. I've used Ka-Blam in the past with mostly good results.

A friend who is a print consultant recently suggested I look at Smart Press, who are also able to do true B&W printing, but give more options for paper and formats.

 

[PKR]

PKR - the goal is to find a publisher or, failing that, to get the work out to an appropriate audience.

I have some friends who have published photo books. The huge advantage with a known publisher is their distribution network. Doing your own distribution is difficult.

Jeffery Fraenkel publishes often. He's a gallery owner and has had really good success because of the talent he's publishing and because of the gallery/collector value of the books. Maybe publishing along with a gallery show(s) would be another avenue?

I've had some luck with printing posters. The Graphic Designer and Printer share in the cost, distribution, and profit. I've always paid for the paper. Big printers often have a big distribution network, same as publishers.

The printer sees me as the client. So, I do the press check/proofing during the print run. It's given me a lot of control over the finished product.

 

[Paul T.]

Have you actually seen and studied the Blurb output?

I deal with Web offset in my main life, via magazines and have had a good number of books published by upmarket folks... but my wife and I used Bobbooks for a recent project (she designs magazines for Aston Martin and other companies). Bobbooks is said to be slightly better than Blurb... but it's capable of very good quality. Better than you'd expect of an upmarket book a decade ago.

Personally, I'd say the issue of proofing (and files) is more crucial than that of output.

 

[RichC]

Have you actually seen and studied the Blurb output?

I deal with Web offset in my main life, via magazines and have had a good number of books published by upmarket folks... but my wife and I used Bobbooks for a recent project (she designs magazines for Aston Martin and other companies). Bobbooks is said to be slightly better than Blurb... but it's capable of very good quality. Better than you'd expect of an upmarket book a decade ago.

Personally, I'd say the issue of proofing (and files) is more crucial than that of output.

Like Paul, I work in publishing, and agree with him that Blurb's print quality is perfectly acceptable - as with output from all modern high-end commercial laser printers. These days, laser printing is very, very good and gives offset printing a run for its money. Offset printing remains the gold standard and is capable of exceptional quality but is very expensive, costing thousands of pounds.

As Paul also says, care in creating the press-ready files is the crucial factor here - choice of paper, knowing how colour and tone in images are affected by the paper, working in the colour space (CMYK, not RGB), using appropriate colour profiles, using a colour-managed workflow (i.e. calibrate your monitor), applying the correct image resolution, etc. Some of this is not straightforward - converting a colour image from RGB to CMYK can result in colour shifts which you may want to compensate for as best you can (you can never "fix" it as CMYK has a reduced colour palette compared with RGB). Even B&W images can print poorly if not processed correctly.

Many people think putting a photobook together is straightforward. But it's actually pretty technical, coupled with skill and experience in processing images - like taking a good photo, you just "know" when an image has been processed appropriately.

I suspect many people unhappy with their Blurb books are doing it wrong! That said, there are plenty of on-demand printers, and Blurb is the best known, not necessarily the best quality.

Unless you know what you're doing and familiar with InDesign (don't use Blurb's software - it's too basic), I strongly suggest paying for a designer familiar with photobooks to put your book together.

 

[Bob Michaels]

PKR - the goal is to find a publisher or, failing that, to get the work out to an appropriate audience.

Original poster, Nowhereman, is talking about finding a publisher or some other way to get his work out. But most of the responses are about printers and printing technology, not publishers.

If he is successful in finding a publisher, then that publisher will lead to their chosen printer.

Nowhereman, if you do not have success in finding a publisher, I suggest you consider using the web to get your photos out to the public.

Real publishing requires a significant up front expense. That is a high hurdle for someone starting out regardless of the quality of the photographs. Remember that Robert Frank could not find a US publisher for "The Americans" to start out.

 

[Nowhereman]

If you are using InDesign, I thought imposition capability was built in. If not, I'm sure there's a plug-in. Of course, PDFs can be imposed. But if it's few enough pages to staple, I would probably just lay it out in the imposed flow.

I've created books of poems like this. Rather than stapling, I sewed the binding, which looked really nice. You'll also need to be concerned with trimming because of what happens when you fold a stack of paper. Kinkos trimmed mine very precisely.

How many pages are you thinking? I'm not sure how folding good photo paper would work...

John - I am using InDesign. I wouldn't print a whole book but a series of three zines, which I would staple. The last time I sewed anything was in second grade in Stockholm, when we all had to sew a Swedish flag — many years ago, although I still have the flag.

The first zine would have, at this stage, 32 pages, including the cover and back page. That would mean 8 two-sided sheets. Just thinking: could I simplify this by printing full-bleed on a 17 inch roll, so that the page size would be 11.0 x 8.5 inches? I would probably use paper of 90-120gsm weight, and print in one run and then the second run on the back of the paper. If I use the Epson SCP 5000, I would think, on the basis of experience with Epson 24 and 44 inch printers, the positioning and cutting would be exact. Do you think this approach would work? Another issue is whether the price I could sell the zines at would cover paper and ink cost, US$10–15 per copy?

I was asked above why I want to get this work out. In correspondence with a Brazilian photographer and teacher (of fotografia autoral), I wrote that I was trying to figure whether the world needs this book. He responded that a more relevant question is whether I needed this book, rather than whether the world needed it. On the media to use, I think I need something printed, book or zine, and not an e-book.
_______________
Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

 

[majid]

HP Indigo, not Fuji. Quality is every bit as good as any offset press.

HP sold their MagCloud magazine printing service to Blurb. I have never tried it myself but it has a good reputation.

Many photo book services offer a photo paper lay-flat option, like AdoramaPix. Even Costco got into the game, and the prices are very reasonable for personal use, less so for commercial distribution.

 

[mani]

My own - very unscientific - experience with Blurb books (that I use to print one-off books of personal images) is that the quality is actually very good. It's definitely not Steidl, but with care in output from your image program, and by selecting the right paper and format, then Blurb does a very adequate job.

When I was starting out with them, I made a few ten or fifteen page test books in softcovers to check color, layout and paper-choice. I'd recommend doing this if you decide to try Blurb.

Incidentally the softcovers are really awful: glossy and easily damaged. I always choose the charcoal hardcovers, and I'm pleased with those, and the quality of the internal binding.

I tried one of their magazine formats once, but the glued binding simply fell apart the first time it was opened. So I'd warn against those - from my limited data-point of just one attempt. Blurb credited the entire cost of the failure.

These days I use the Lightroom Blurb module for my books. This is simply because the workflow was faster than inDesign to Blurb, and - for my purposes - the end result was good enough.

I'm always interested in hearing what other people use in Europe though. I'd be willing to try another printer - especially one that offered nicer softcovers (something that a lot of Blurb users have asked for over the years - pleas that have fallen on deaf ears, unfortunately).

 

[Nowhereman]

majid - Looking at the myriad of web articles on digital vs analog (offset/litho) printing, you'll quickly see that the discussions sound a lot like "film vs digital" discussion on RFF. Comparisons of HP Indigo (digital) and Heidelberg (analog) presses abound. As example, the following statement:

Just a small note, regarding HP Indigo’s “ink” – it is a common misconception that the toner sinks into the paper as in offset printing. Actually it doesn’t. When the toner reaches the blanket, all the carrier liquid in it is evaporated, leaving a sort of polymer, which then gets transferred onto the paper. In other words, it is no longer liquid, and therefore can’t sink into anything.

Indeed, HP calls it's [liquid] toner for the Indigo "ink", and there are arguments that it isn't ink, but toner. More broadly, many of these discussions are about generic books, as opposed to high quality photo books.


mani - I can only go by personal experience of having had three different photo book dummies printed on an HP Indigo, both color and B&W, by a small print shop where individual attention was given to the jobs. While test prints of a couple of individual pages, in each case, were relatively good, the three printed books were nowhere near the quality of good photo book printed by offset — certainly not Steidl quality, but also below the quality of good photo books below the Steidl level. Same for a couple of Blurb-type books I've seen. At this stage of digital press technology, I don't see how one can expect a photo book printed on the HP Indigo to be anywhere near the quality of offset printing, where you get to approve each individual sheet of the test run. (BTW, there is an interesting video somewhere on the web showing Jacob Aue Sobol doing just that ar Super Labo in Tokyo.)

That's the reason I don't want to go the print-on-demand route, and am now considering the self-print zine idea, if I cannot find a publisher.
_______________
Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

 

[Paul T.]

Again, I think you're worrying about output medium when you should really be more concerned by proofing.

 

[Bob Michaels]

I was asked above why I want to get this work out. In correspondence with a Brazilian photographer and teacher (of fotografia autoral), I wrote that I was trying to figure whether the world needs this book. He responded that a more relevant question is whether I needed this book, rather than whether the world needed it. On the media to use, I think I need something printed, book or zine, and not an e-book.

I am in a bit of a similar situation. However, I am in a bit of an unusual position having had a long career in business financial management, so having the advantage / curse of forcing myself into hard financial and marketing analysis with real money. I concluded there was no financial viability in publishing what I wanted to do but did want to do it for personal reasons.

My photographic work has a reason and a message. That is best disseminated by "prints on the wall" exhibits, talks, and an active website. But I wanted something tangible as well. I rejected the one off printers such as Blurb, and committed to a print run of 100 copies. I spent a lot of time working with a photo editor that I hired. She was brutal but that was what I really needed. I am very happy with the result.

77 friends and family members have copies of my book. Each was specifically chosen and received it as a gift with a personal inscription inside. My book is not available for purchase. If you have a copy, it is because I wanted you to have a copy. It was not an inexpensive effort but one I am happy with.

Edition One in Berkley CA www.editiononebooks.com/ did the printing. They are short run photo book printers, not publishers. The do all their printing in house with nothing subcontracted. They were great to work with. My print run of 100 copies was a small job for them but I still has my own project manager who was very responsive. We exchanged many samples and proofs with them completely understanding my comments and requests. They offered me a variety of choices including prints from one press vs. another. But I never asked what type of printing press they used just as they never asked me what lens or film I used.

 

[sepiareverb]

...Edition One in Berkley CA www.editiononebooks.com/ did the printing. They are short run photo book printers, not publishers. The do all their printing in house with nothing subcontracted. They were great to work with. My print run of 100 copies was a small job for them but I still has my own project manager who was very responsive. We exchanged many samples and proofs with them completely understanding my comments and requests. They offered me a variety of choices including prints from one press vs. another. But I never asked what type of printing press they used just as they never asked me what lens or film I used.

Edition One printed a very small run for me a few years back. Could not have been happier with them. So easy to work with, and they do magnificent printing.

 

[mod2001]

I don't see how one can expect a photo book printed on the HP Indigo to be anywhere near the quality of offset printing,

Can't agree more, HP Indigo comes not even close to Offset, and you don't have to print with Steidl to see the differences in the quality.

But as mentioned before, the proofing is the really challenging part.

Yogi

 

[dmr]

I don't see how one can expect a photo book printed on the HP Indigo to be anywhere near the quality of offset printing

We have one of the better HP machines in our media center and I've always considered it to be BETTER in photo quality than the commercial offset printing methods used for short runs, the weekly magazines, etc.

Now I have not worked in a print shop for decades, so my numbers may be off here, but IIAC most commercial 4-color offset is (still) done with 133 or 150 line screens. These won't be obvious at normal viewing distances, but you can sure see them close up. I sure can't see any obvious pattern at all in the HP printed photos, either on bond or coated stock. I'm sure the resolution is greater than 600 lines per inch.

We've compared the HP photos to those in People and the HP wins.

If I were to do a vanity-published short run "Collected Works" type of thing, which I've considered, I'm sure I would be happy with any of the demand shops which used a well-maintained production quality printer.

And, as an aside, and not to be argumentative at all, I've always considered rotogravure and not offset to be more of a "gold standard" for printed photos. I'm sure that the fashion mags and National Geographic, for example, are still using this.

 

[Paul T.]

And, as an aside, and not to be argumentative at all, I've always considered rotogravure and not offset to be more of a "gold standard" for printed photos. I'm sure that the fashion mags and National Geographic, for example, are still using this.

You're absolutely right. Many publishers pay a significant amount more for gravure for exactly that reason in high end magazines.

You're also right re offset - the use of a screen will instantly render photos... not necessarily worse, but different. Let's say, usually worse.

I know that a good scan, with good proofing, on nice paper, will look better to me than typical offset. If you insist on offset, with InDesign you will have to spec your output format very carefully as things like dot gain will make a significant difference. Don't try and do it yourself unless you have lots of experience. That's why the suggestion of a small run printer like Edition One is good, because you are eliminating some of the variables re speccing and proofing.

I honestly believe that the Blurbbook we produced recently is equivalent quality to some high end print jobs we've worked on. But again, all the devil is in the detail. Thinking about what printer is used at the end, is like getting obsessed with a particualr lens, and getting your prints done at a supermarket. The weakest link in a chain will always have the biggest proportional effect.

 

[robert blu]

A few years ago my wife and me made a dummy for a book about Prague printing it with inkjet and induing the page with Tesa film.

It was not intended for publishing but to make an experience about selecting, editing, sequencing and all the work required.

A few images of the process here and here.