Alternatives for book printing — or make a zine?

[Nowhereman]

@johnwolf - exactly.

@Paul T. - on one level, it seems to me we’re talking about the same thing: you’re saying “proofing” is the most important thing; and I’m saying that unless you have page-by-page control, you’re not going to get a high-quality photo book. But we’re discussing printing a book by a print-on-demand service vs printing a minimum run of, say 200-500 books. Print-on-demand services largely use the HP Indigo press, for a which proofing page-by-page is impossible: the shop will print every time you place an order; printing by offset allows you to accept a proof for each page — and you’ll have the quality you’ve approved for the whole 200-500 book run. Also, as mentioned earlier, the HP Indigo will often not stay in calibration during any given day.
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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

 

[jsrockit]

I honestly believe that the Blurbbook we produced recently is equivalent quality to some high end print jobs we've worked on.

I find many blame blurbs quality on their poor post processing and the fact that they don't do any tests. When I first used blurb, I did many small test books to make sure I knew how to post process my images specifically for their printing. After using them for 5 years, I know how to make most of my photos look right in their books.

 

[RichC]

Again, I think you're worrying about output medium when you should really be more concerned by proofing.

I feel your audience is a principle concern. Friends and family likely will be wowed just to have your book in their hands. Other artists, galleries, etc. -- that's a different story.

No one's listening to people like Paul who actually have experience!

Yes, offset printing can achieve very high-quality results - but way too high for most needs! Digital printing is definitely good enough for most needs, including photobooks. It's far more important to ensure optimal quality for the press-ready files - such as image resolution, sharpness, tone and colour.

I personally have no qualms about using digital printing for high-end photobooks - I made a digitally printed photobook that has been in several exhibitions and which I sell for £250, and have sold 5 of the limited edition of 15, including to a Magnum photographer (who collects photobooks and is very picky about quality!): http://www.richcutler.co.uk/photography/insecta/insecta-photobook/.

 

[Nowhereman]

...You have the paper size concept right. Print on a large sheet and fold and stitch. As I recall now, I had Kinkos do the folding on their folding machine. You really can't get a sharp fold by hand. Here are some thoughts from Red River on best photo paper weights for binding.

I'm not sure you're using the "zine" term correctly. It really refers to the magazine size and relatively lightweight gloss or semi-gloss paper typical of magazines. Zines usually also include text and are not seeking stellar photo quality. Is that what you mean?...

Thanks, John. In the Red River link, all double-sided papers only come in sheets; I would need rolls.

I think that the zine concept has been greatly extended in the last couple of years. It used to be that photo zines would be xeroxed from photo prints. Now, zines are often only photos and use the higher quality of an inkjet printer, or a print-on-demand service or even offset. David Alan Harvey is working a zine of a project he called Beach Games, and says that he considers that the difficulty, quality and cost will be the same as making a book. Incidentally, another thing DAH has said is that most photographers assume that the main cost of a book is printing, but that marketing and distribution usually cost more — and that is the reason many unknown photographers may have to pay the printing costs even if they manage to find a publisher.
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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

 

[Bob Michaels]

.................. But as mentioned before, the proofing is the really challenging part............

I look at things from a very different angle. The selection of the printing press and the proofing, hell even the post processing, are thresholds that must be met. But the gains beyond that threshold quickly reach a point of diminishing returns. Those have similarities to lens or film selection. All are tangible, easy to debate, but none can make work great.

The real key is just like everything else in photography. What you photograph, how you edit and sequence the photos, to what extent the overall body of work evokes emotion, and communicates information will always be what sets the really good work apart from what is technically perfect.

BTW, I had previously printed every image in my book. I followed Edition One's guidelines for color space EXACTLY. The proof of my book had every image match exactly my b&w prints.

 

[Paul T.]

I feel your audience is a principle concern. Friends and family likely will be wowed just to have your book in their hands. Other artists, galleries, etc. -- that's a different story.

John

I guess this is the internet so one opinion is just as good as another. But I have produced illustrated books for Penguin, Hamlyn/Octopus, Chronicle and others, nearly all of them internationalised, plus magazines for the UK's second biggest publishers, working with prints from people like Jim Marshall, William Eggleston, Val Wilmer, Penny Smith and many more.

And my mum has only ever bought a couple of my books.

I can see how you have an outcome in mind, and if that's what you're sure you want, then go for it. But you did ask people for opinions, so it's polite to at least pretend to appreciate them. 🙂

 

[Nowhereman]

Paul T. - You say you've produced illustrated books and magazines for major publishers, but that would seem to be quite different from the quality concerns of a high-quality photo book. As I wrote in post #24, and repeat here: we’re discussing printing a book by a print-on-demand service vs printing a (low) minimum run of, say 200-500 books. Print-on-demand services largely use the HP Indigo press, for a which proofing page-by-page is impossible: the shop will print every time you place an order; printing by offset allows you to accept a proof for each page — and you’ll have the quality you’ve approved for the whole 200-500 book run. Also, as mentioned earlier, the HP Indigo will often not stay in calibration during any given day. Not sure how you're addressing this basic issue, notwithstanding the smiley.
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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

 

[Paul T.]

Paul T. - You say you've produced illustrated books and magazines for major publishers, but that would seem to be quite different from the quality concerns of a high-quality photo book. As I wrote in post #24, and repeat here: we’re discussing printing a book by a print-on-demand service vs printing a (low) minimum run of, say 200-500 books. Print-on-demand services largely use the HP Indigo press, for a which proofing page-by-page is impossible: the shop will print every time you place an order; printing by offset allows you to accept a proof for each page — and you’ll have the quality you’ve approved for the whole 200-500 book run. Also, as mentioned earlier, the HP Indigo will often not stay in calibration during any given day. Not sure how you're addressing this basic issue, notwithstanding the smiley.
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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

I think we've covered all the issues now. I don't accept that we're talking about a different quality universe; the fact you're discussing a small print run would actually make this even more of a digital project.

I would be interested in seeing if you can, as you suggest, get an offset job run off a few copies at a time. It is an intriguing idea, although again the time your printer can devote to it will be the key criterion, along with how you're speccing the output from InDesign. Do price up your offset job and report back - good luck with the project, I will be fascinated to see the results.

 

[Nowhereman]

Paul T. - I don't understand the reason for your continued sarcasm. It's obvious that one can't do an offset run for less than 250-500 books, and preferably substantially more. Also, I have found that I can't get page-by-page control from a print shop with an HP Indigo press — and certainly not from an online print-on-demand service.

I stated clearly from the outset that, unless I had a publisher for marketing and distribution, I couldn't get enough volume for an offset press; that I couldn't get page-by-page control with a small print shop using an HP Indigo; and that, therefore, if I couldn't get the quality of a good photo book, I was considering breaking the book up into three issues of a zine that I would print myself on an inkjet printer — and asked what people thought. Essentially, the only thing you've said is that one need "proofing" and that you've had a lot experience. Not that helpful.
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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

 

[PKR]

We have one of the better HP machines in our media center and I've always considered it to be BETTER in photo quality than the commercial offset printing methods used for short runs, the weekly magazines, etc.

Now I have not worked in a print shop for decades, so my numbers may be off here, but IIAC most commercial 4-color offset is (still) done with 133 or 150 line screens. These won't be obvious at normal viewing distances, but you can sure see them close up. I sure can't see any obvious pattern at all in the HP printed photos, either on bond or coated stock. I'm sure the resolution is greater than 600 lines per inch.

We've compared the HP photos to those in People and the HP wins. 🙂

If I were to do a vanity-published 🙂 short run "Collected Works" type of thing, which I've considered, I'm sure I would be happy with any of the demand shops which used a well-maintained production quality printer.

And, as an aside, and not to be argumentative at all, 🙂 I've always considered rotogravure and not offset to be more of a "gold standard" for printed photos. I'm sure that the fashion mags and National Geographic, for example, are still using this.

I have to agree with Rotogravure as being the best mass production printing I've ever seen. The ink is thrown on to the paper from pockets in the plate. I think many plate changes are necessary during a big run. With lithography the blanket transfers the ink from the plate to the paper. An added step and saves plate wear. NatGeo printed this way long ago. A few high end photo magazines would sometimes include a few pages as tip-ins.

Last two posters I did were: 4 color + spot varnish on 6 bay Heidelberg, B+W Duotone plus black and spot varnish, two passes through a 2 bay Heidelberg. Color was 24x36 before trimming, b+w was 18x24 trimmed. I don't remember the sheet size. Really great printing by two different printers. .

 

[mani]

I followed the link to Edition One and was intrigued to find that they seem to use digital printing for runs up to 500 copies:

http://www.editiononebooks.com/process/printing/

Their service looks really good, and the attention to detail exemplary - with proofing and personal settings for all stages in the process. Doesn't this contradict what some people have said in this thread about digital printing?

Anyway, absolutely no axe to grind in this thread. My experience with printing is very limited, and I had no involvement in that side of the business even when I was working in advertising. I can only say that looking at some of my art/photo books beside the output from Blurb, the differences aren't really as great as one might expect. Naturally my experience there doesn't extend to color consistency over an edition of more than one - so worthless data in those terms...

 

[sepiareverb]

Edition One gave me several rounds of proofs of a selection of pages as I was unsure of how things would look after having used blurb or Magcloud before with B&W images and finding shifts in color between print runs (second orders of a book). I also wanted to match the toning of my prints, so had three tweaks of image color that I wanted to compare.

The pages I got as proofs matched my calibrated screen, each other, and then matched the finished book precisely. I only ordered 5 copies. Not sure how they printed it, but they did it in such a fashion that it was completely consistent.

If you are looking for a publisher, then you might want to have cheap dummies printed. My two cents is that a mock-up or dummy can take many forms: a looseleaf binder, hand bound book/zine, blurb/magcloud, etc. if you are using InDesign, the blurb plug-in makes for quick layout as a test, and having a single or two books (even partial ones with a range of images that you feel could be problematic) printed as a test would be well worth the money. Plus, there are often free offers found for printing a new blurb book, or a single book. Despite the shifts in color I used to get from blurb, books printed in the last five years have been vastly more consistent. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend blurb or magcloud for printing dummies. Plus, perfection in a dummy seems overkill.

Having inkjet printed and stapled or sewn several copies of a few things myself, the time, handwork and space requirements involved in making 200 copies of anything seems pretty off-putting.

 

[jsrockit]

I only ordered 5 copies. Not sure how they printed it, but they did it in such a fashion that it was completely consistent.

May I ask how much did this cost?

 

[willie_901]

What about books or magazines that offer true monochrome printing for B&W photographs?

My concern is even with a source file that has zero color information, a color printing process could result in an undesired tint. Perhaps in 2017 this concern is obsolete?

I guess that's where proofing comes in as well.

 

[Nowhereman]

@jsrockit - The Edition One website has a price calculator. For my book — 6.75 x 10 inches (HxW), hard cover, 58 B&W pages, 28 color pages and 4 blank pages the price would be $476 for 5 books, the minimum order quantity.

@willie_901 - I wrote asked wrote to Edition One an hour ago asking about proofing B&W and color and got the following response, impressively quick:

We print offset for quantities of 500 or more copies generally. We do not do press level adjustment for digital or offset orders. Instead, we hard proof in both cases and allow the customer to then adjust his files as he sees fit - if further hard proofs are needed, we will make them. As such, the process is really the same in both cases. If you want total neutrality with black and white images, the only way to achieve that is to use grayscale image files. However, there is a trade off with the density of the blacks and the overall resolution as only K will be used. Mixing grayscale and rgb/cmyk images in one file is not a problem.
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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

 

[Nowhereman]

Edition One gave me several rounds of proofs of a selection of pages as I was unsure of how things would look after having used blurb or Magcloud before with B&W images and finding shifts in color between print runs (second orders of a book). I also wanted to match the toning of my prints, so had three tweaks of image color that I wanted to compare...

...Having inkjet printed and stapled or sewn several copies of a few things myself, the time, handwork and space requirements involved in making 200 copies of anything seems pretty off-putting.

Thanks for the information on your experience with Edition One.

I was wrong writing earlier that an offset press would allow page-by-page proofing and control. Instead, one can have sheet-by-sheet control on the sheets that come off of the press.

The highest quality, and most expensive, printing with offset/litho would allow press level adjustment, in which you approve a proof for each sheet. The video of Jacob Aue Sobol at Super Labo in Tokyo shows him doing that, as the sheets come off the press.

On the three-issue zine idea, I was musing about this possibility and couldn't handle more than 30 copies — and even that would be a huge chore that I don't think I would like to attempt. Another issue is that I had a landscape format book in mind, with images facing each other on a two-page spread. With a zine, I would have to change to portrait orientation, with one (landscape-orientation) image across a two-page spread.
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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

 

[sepiareverb]

My book was done in back in 2012, the price calculator will give current prices, but know they are not priced like blurb. However, you are not constrained to any particular size - my book was 8¼ x 9 inches - and you get magnificent customer service in addition to higher quality printing. I recall calling to discuss the proofs and having the person who answered the phone step out of the room where a press was running. They are very hands on.

Edit- of course book size will be constrained by their press, but for my project being able to do something other than 7x7, 8x10 or 12x12 was important. As was a matte paper cover.

 

[Nowhereman]

The advantage of on-demand printers like Blurb is that you can have them ship your book directly to anyone who buys it. The disadvantages I would think are the limited size and (paper options?) and lower quality printing, resulting from (mainly?) less proofing.

 

[Paul T.]

What about books or magazines that offer true monochrome printing for B&W photographs?

My concern is even with a source file that has zero color information, a color printing process could result in an undesired tint. Perhaps in 2017 this concern is obsolete?

I guess that's where proofing comes in as well.

Whatever process you use, four colour black and white will give better mid-tones than black and white, but will often add a colour cast. This will vary even across an offset run.

For high quality books you need to investigate printing as tritones with grey as well as black inks. This gives better midtones without a colour cast, but is harder to set up - traditionally in the UK we'd get these jobs done in Italy by printers like Mondadori, as they know this technology better. WE haven't done this in ages. Again, you need an experienced printer to explain how to spec your output files.

 

[jsrockit]

@jsrockit - The Edition One website has a price calculator. For my book — 6.75 x 10 inches (HxW), hard cover, 58 B&W pages, 28 color pages and 4 blank pages the price would be $476 for 5 books, the minimum order quantity.

Thank you...