NickTrop
Veteran
Hi...
Getting a wee bit tired of the relatively short life of Dektol and me thinks I'm going to switch to a liquid concentrate print developer due to their allegedly longer shelf life. Was looking at Ilford Universal Paper Developer or Ilford Multigrade paper developer.
Are these as good as Dektol? Is one better than the other in your opinion? Do they last in concentrate form once the bottle is opened? Any other recommendations of other brands is appreciated.
FWIW, I'm a semi-neophyte (though a full neophyte in the heathen sense of the word) at printing who's still printing 100% RC (but I think I'll pick up some FB later this summer) and I use a condenser head enlarger.
Thanks in advance...
Getting a wee bit tired of the relatively short life of Dektol and me thinks I'm going to switch to a liquid concentrate print developer due to their allegedly longer shelf life. Was looking at Ilford Universal Paper Developer or Ilford Multigrade paper developer.
Are these as good as Dektol? Is one better than the other in your opinion? Do they last in concentrate form once the bottle is opened? Any other recommendations of other brands is appreciated.
FWIW, I'm a semi-neophyte (though a full neophyte in the heathen sense of the word) at printing who's still printing 100% RC (but I think I'll pick up some FB later this summer) and I use a condenser head enlarger.
Thanks in advance...
Bryce
Well-known
Nick-
I will personally UN recommend Ilford's Multigrade developer. I've had two problems with it: 1) it has a short shelf life, once opened at least, and looks fine even when it won't work. 2) It gives prints a yucky greenish blue tint in the shadows that I don't care for.
I've had very good luck with Dektol. The stock solution lasts at least a few months (70 degrees canstant temp. and dark in my case) and turns very dark in color before it will do anything bad to prints, like stain them. I've never had it lose potency.
I've also had no problems with packages of dry Dektol going bad... maybe I've been lucky?
Anyway, consider that I generally prefer to support Ilford over Kodak because the one company has stated intentions to continue supporting B+W while the other has stated the opposite.
So what sort of failures have you experienced with Dektol?
The usual tips for storage of stock solutions, i.e. constant temp., no light reaching the solution, and minimal contact with oxygen will help there if you're not doing those things.
I will personally UN recommend Ilford's Multigrade developer. I've had two problems with it: 1) it has a short shelf life, once opened at least, and looks fine even when it won't work. 2) It gives prints a yucky greenish blue tint in the shadows that I don't care for.
I've had very good luck with Dektol. The stock solution lasts at least a few months (70 degrees canstant temp. and dark in my case) and turns very dark in color before it will do anything bad to prints, like stain them. I've never had it lose potency.
I've also had no problems with packages of dry Dektol going bad... maybe I've been lucky?
Anyway, consider that I generally prefer to support Ilford over Kodak because the one company has stated intentions to continue supporting B+W while the other has stated the opposite.
So what sort of failures have you experienced with Dektol?
The usual tips for storage of stock solutions, i.e. constant temp., no light reaching the solution, and minimal contact with oxygen will help there if you're not doing those things.
NickTrop
Veteran
Hi Bryce,
Thanks for the rec. I tooled around the web after posting and found a thread somewhere that reinforces your suggestion. Dektol is the best. (However, they weren't as damning of the Ilford products...) My issue is that I don't have a "dark room", I have a "dark area" in my basement. My printing is in fits and starts, and I can only do it after sunset and not in the winter (basement too cold). Sometimes I print a couple times a week. However, sometimes a month or more can slip.
Dektol seems like it oxidizes pretty quickly and I don't like wondering if it's still active when time passes between sessions. I've switched to Diafine and Rodinal for negatives because of similar issues with D76. That worked pretty well, no worries about dumping developer, always have it on hand, stuff seems like it will last forever. (Plus I like them, though there's nothing wrong at all with D76...) Thought I could do the same with print developer. I also prefer liquids over powder concentrates.
As much as I share your measure of distain for Kodak's lack of committment to black and white relative to Ilford, Kodak still has several products that you can't do with out it seems. (Dektol, Tri-X, certain of their color print and slide films...)
Thanks for your advice!
Thanks for the rec. I tooled around the web after posting and found a thread somewhere that reinforces your suggestion. Dektol is the best. (However, they weren't as damning of the Ilford products...) My issue is that I don't have a "dark room", I have a "dark area" in my basement. My printing is in fits and starts, and I can only do it after sunset and not in the winter (basement too cold). Sometimes I print a couple times a week. However, sometimes a month or more can slip.
Dektol seems like it oxidizes pretty quickly and I don't like wondering if it's still active when time passes between sessions. I've switched to Diafine and Rodinal for negatives because of similar issues with D76. That worked pretty well, no worries about dumping developer, always have it on hand, stuff seems like it will last forever. (Plus I like them, though there's nothing wrong at all with D76...) Thought I could do the same with print developer. I also prefer liquids over powder concentrates.
As much as I share your measure of distain for Kodak's lack of committment to black and white relative to Ilford, Kodak still has several products that you can't do with out it seems. (Dektol, Tri-X, certain of their color print and slide films...)
Thanks for your advice!
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pesphoto
Veteran
Check out http://sprintsystems.com/
Ive been using it for years exclusively.
Ive been using it for years exclusively.
NickTrop
Veteran
Thanks for the link, pesphoto. I'll check it out.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
Spint is great stuff. It's what I used in college and I still use their rapid fixer. Everything in the line is diluted with water 1:9 to working strength (for film, the fixer is 2:8). My recommendation if you are only an intermittent darkroom printer, is to decant the stuff (whatever you buy) into 100ml brown glass bottles (or whatever size you will need for one printing session). If filled to the top so that there is minimal air, this technique will keep the smaller amounts of concentrate fresh for a very long time. Incidentally, this technique works with Dektol too, you just need 500 ml bottles (assuming you dilute 1:2 for working strength). The stuff will keep for a long time. I am assuming that the mix-your-own-from-scratch route holds no appeal -- if I'm wrong about that, there are measuring spoon recipes for all of the major developers available on the 'net and bulk chemicals from places like the Photographer's Formulary.
Good luck!
Ben
Good luck!
Ben
x-ray
Veteran
I've used dektol for most of my photo life but in recent months have switched to LPD for a warmer tone on Ilford Warmtone FB. At this point I like it better for warmtone than Detkol. Also have found the Ilford warmtone developer good but still like LPD better.
JCT
Established
x-ray said:
OK, I'm being dense -- "LPD"? I was actually just thinking of giving dektol a try...
JT
erikhaugsby
killer of threads
pesphoto said:
My camera shop has had Sprint stocked on the bottom shelf for quite some time now, but I've never gotten to try them out. Can you give any comparisons to other products in rendering of the print?
I just might pick up a liter or two soon, as I ran out of Ilford Multigrade last week.
NickTrop
Veteran
I think I'm gonna give Sprint a try. I really don't have much of an issue with mixing my own, put concentrates are easier. I tried those accordian bottles for Dektol, but I've been away from the darkroom for a little while and I think it's dead.
JCT, I never heard of LPD either, but googled LPD and its a developer called ETHOL LPD, here's a thread about it: http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=007B57
And Dektol is the standard and many swear but it, as I used to, and it has the lion's share of the print developer market in B&W. It's quite good, fine if you use it regularly but once you make up some stock solution from powder, its shelf life is only a couple months (less in my experience) before it oxidizes and turns brown, loses potency.
Benjamin, if it lasts this long in 500ml bottles, I might give this a try too.
Thanks VM for the tips, all.
JCT, I never heard of LPD either, but googled LPD and its a developer called ETHOL LPD, here's a thread about it: http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=007B57
And Dektol is the standard and many swear but it, as I used to, and it has the lion's share of the print developer market in B&W. It's quite good, fine if you use it regularly but once you make up some stock solution from powder, its shelf life is only a couple months (less in my experience) before it oxidizes and turns brown, loses potency.
Benjamin, if it lasts this long in 500ml bottles, I might give this a try too.
Thanks VM for the tips, all.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Nick: You could spend hours on APUG reading opinions on paper developers, so I won't recommend you to post there. 
I like Dektol a lot, but have used others. My absolute favourite was/is Weston's Amidol. It's a bit of a PITA to mix. Once the working solution is open to the air (in the tray) it has a pretty short life, but it gave me blacks and tonal scale like nothing else on good fibre paper. Also, it's not cheap. But for me, worth it.
My suggestion would be to use brown, well-stoppered bottles for your Dektol.
If you want to mix your own, I also liked Ansco 130.
I like Dektol a lot, but have used others. My absolute favourite was/is Weston's Amidol. It's a bit of a PITA to mix. Once the working solution is open to the air (in the tray) it has a pretty short life, but it gave me blacks and tonal scale like nothing else on good fibre paper. Also, it's not cheap. But for me, worth it.
My suggestion would be to use brown, well-stoppered bottles for your Dektol.
If you want to mix your own, I also liked Ansco 130.
NickTrop
Veteran
Trius, that developer sounds interesting. Relatively pricey but if the prints are that much better, it would seem worth it. Have you ever tried it with VC RC paper? I haven't made the leap to FB stuff yet (though I intend to...)
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Let me chime in for Sprint also. Paul Krot (Sprint founder) was my prof in college and he knew photo chemistry like nobody else. The print developer is quite nice- good color with cold tone papers (I've not tried warm-tone in this), and very long life both in the bottle and tray.
I use Sprint for my proofsheets and proof prints, and Sprint fixer, fixer remover, photo-flo (called 'End Run') and the brightener on my final prints. All the chemistry is simple & long lived. Do beware that the Fixer Remover can go bad in the bottle- but you can hear the sediment/crystals that form as it dies if you shake the bottle. I got bad Fix Remove from one local shop that was getting out of chemistry & paper and had these bottles lying around for a while (at $1 a pop I took the gamble- and then learned about the 'death rattle' of the fix remove) The developer and fixer I also got was fine.
I use Sprint for my proofsheets and proof prints, and Sprint fixer, fixer remover, photo-flo (called 'End Run') and the brightener on my final prints. All the chemistry is simple & long lived. Do beware that the Fixer Remover can go bad in the bottle- but you can hear the sediment/crystals that form as it dies if you shake the bottle. I got bad Fix Remove from one local shop that was getting out of chemistry & paper and had these bottles lying around for a while (at $1 a pop I took the gamble- and then learned about the 'death rattle' of the fix remove) The developer and fixer I also got was fine.
ChrisPlatt
Thread Killer
Which general-purpose paper developers sold in liquid form
are most concentrated and/or have the longest shelf-life?
TIA,
Chris
are most concentrated and/or have the longest shelf-life?
TIA,
Chris
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sepiareverb
genius and moron
Sprint for shelf-life in my experience, tho I use mostly powders. I tried Ultra Black, but found it a bit chalky.
Sprint gets diluted 1:9
Sprint gets diluted 1:9
mhv
Registered User
Just another vote for Ansco 130 (available from PF as Formulary 130), and I have used it on RC VC from 35mm negatives (and fiber too, of course). This combination would theoretically be the least likely to yield any difference from the Zonies point of view, but I have made the comparisons, and you get a nicer contrast, and the best tonal separation.
I've put side-by-side the same print made on Ilford RC MGIV developped in Dektol, PolymaxT, and Ansco 130, and the 130 wins. Polymax was my favorite until then. Dektol didn't give me the separation I wanted. PolymaxT was already better, and I inteded to stick to it until I saw I could squeeze an extra nugget from 130.
The best thing about Ansco 130 is that once it is mixed, it lasts forever, even when diluted. Your tray of 130 diluted 1+1 will dry up from use or evaporation before you can even exhaust it. The only thing that matters is that you should mix it early enough when you receive the powders because its glycin constituent degrades quickly in air. However, it is extremely stable once it's in solution.
I've put side-by-side the same print made on Ilford RC MGIV developped in Dektol, PolymaxT, and Ansco 130, and the 130 wins. Polymax was my favorite until then. Dektol didn't give me the separation I wanted. PolymaxT was already better, and I inteded to stick to it until I saw I could squeeze an extra nugget from 130.
The best thing about Ansco 130 is that once it is mixed, it lasts forever, even when diluted. Your tray of 130 diluted 1+1 will dry up from use or evaporation before you can even exhaust it. The only thing that matters is that you should mix it early enough when you receive the powders because its glycin constituent degrades quickly in air. However, it is extremely stable once it's in solution.
Bryce
Well-known
Its great to hear so many other experiences, especially after I sort of blasted the Ilford stuff. Sorry if that came across too harshly...
Anyhow, I expect to be looking for a new developer myself once Kodak finally pulls the plug.
Unfortunately I am also going to have to learn to live with a new paper since Forte's closure; I have a few months' supply left.
I really hate fiddling with something that works well for me, especially since I'd like to maintain print appearance as a constant from one of my prints to the next.
Sprint and Ansco 130 have both gotten a couple of hits here... sounds like either could be a good starting point.
Anyhow, I expect to be looking for a new developer myself once Kodak finally pulls the plug.
Unfortunately I am also going to have to learn to live with a new paper since Forte's closure; I have a few months' supply left.
I really hate fiddling with something that works well for me, especially since I'd like to maintain print appearance as a constant from one of my prints to the next.
Sprint and Ansco 130 have both gotten a couple of hits here... sounds like either could be a good starting point.
Fotch
Man with a RF Camera
I picked up a bunch of brand new 250ml brown wide mouth bottles that I plan to mix up and then store my Dektol, D76, Xtol or whatever in. From what I have told and read, the stock solution will keep 6 months to a year by getting the air out. I will fill the bottles to the top and then seal. In using, I will use the whole bottle for working solution. If I need more solution, for paper developer, will use several of the stock bottles.
PS. If anyone needs these bottles, I have extras.
Jim
PS. If anyone needs these bottles, I have extras.
Jim
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
I have avoided the problem with Dektol and Ilfords paper developer by mixing fresh developer for each session from powder. A bit of pain when you start, but it has the advantage of giving you fresh soup every time.
Anchell's "The Darkroom Cook book"has a lot of material on this. It is not complicated and you really need only some basic stuff for it. Metol/Sod.Sulphite/Hyroquinone/Sodium carbonate and away you go. If you buy in bulk (1 lb or 500 grams of Metol, the same for Hydroquinone and 5lbs of Sodium Sulphite and maybe 10lbs of Sodium Carbonate, you are set for a long time. Once you have weighed up the ingridients for the first time you can use old film cans as "quick measures" for Metol/Hydroquinone and larger plastic cups for Metol/Carbonate.
My standard paper developer is Du Pont's D-54, similar to D-76 but slightly deeper blacks and for fiber base I use an old Defender formula that will give you blacks that are incredible. Interesting developer to work with, almost 1/2 lb of Sodium carbonate and when you stick the print into it, nothing seems to happen. You stand there and stare at it, thinking that you have printed it emulsion side down or something. Then suddenly, the image pops in one go! Nice velvety blacks and clean white. needs a lot of stop bath though as it is a saturated solution. It was evidently Larry Clarks favourite developer and someone who worked with Eugeen Smith claimed that he used it extensively - and if anyone could print well, he was the one. I have seen a set of the Pittsburg essay prints that he did and I have not seen anything like it before and after. Not to be wasted on RC, but for those special prints, Oh Boy.
I do concur with Agfa !30 although I find it gives a bit warmer tones than I like.
Anchell's "The Darkroom Cook book"has a lot of material on this. It is not complicated and you really need only some basic stuff for it. Metol/Sod.Sulphite/Hyroquinone/Sodium carbonate and away you go. If you buy in bulk (1 lb or 500 grams of Metol, the same for Hydroquinone and 5lbs of Sodium Sulphite and maybe 10lbs of Sodium Carbonate, you are set for a long time. Once you have weighed up the ingridients for the first time you can use old film cans as "quick measures" for Metol/Hydroquinone and larger plastic cups for Metol/Carbonate.
My standard paper developer is Du Pont's D-54, similar to D-76 but slightly deeper blacks and for fiber base I use an old Defender formula that will give you blacks that are incredible. Interesting developer to work with, almost 1/2 lb of Sodium carbonate and when you stick the print into it, nothing seems to happen. You stand there and stare at it, thinking that you have printed it emulsion side down or something. Then suddenly, the image pops in one go! Nice velvety blacks and clean white. needs a lot of stop bath though as it is a saturated solution. It was evidently Larry Clarks favourite developer and someone who worked with Eugeen Smith claimed that he used it extensively - and if anyone could print well, he was the one. I have seen a set of the Pittsburg essay prints that he did and I have not seen anything like it before and after. Not to be wasted on RC, but for those special prints, Oh Boy.
I do concur with Agfa !30 although I find it gives a bit warmer tones than I like.