Amazing photos of Nazi Germany by Hugo Jaeger using a Leica LTM??

[semilog]

Not to mention undersea warfare and airborne operations.

No joke. If it weren't for Bletchley Park, the MIT Radiation Lab, and American industrial capacity, we would have been in really bad shape.

 

[Paul T.]

No joke. If it weren't for Bletchley Park, the MIT Radiation Lab, and American industrial capacity, we would have been in really bad shape.

That's one view. Which might be true.

Here's another view; which might be true.

The Germans frittered away their advantage via internecine rivalries and obsession with boys' toys (that's why we like them so much). The Me 262 looked great but was a logistical disaster - the engines lasted 20 hours, at best. The Gloucester Meteor was a far superior plane.

The Germans invested huge amounts in glamour projects like the V2 and V1 - really, their only value was as propaganda.

German tanks were often wilfully complicated; the Porsche Elefant, the Panther and its needlessly complicated suspension, the stupid King TIger which wouldn't fit many bridges. Compare that to the T-34 and Stalin tanks, which worked!

Where it mattered, in terms of intelligence, the Germans were woeful. The allies kept a fairly successful lead on them in terms of high technology, too; although their bombers had good direction-finding equipment in 1940, the allies, under RV JOnes, soon forged ahead. The allies also had the advantage in short wave radar (then given to the Americans), proximity fuses, Sonar, chaff, and countless other areas. Even though the Germans initially had superior radar, the information processing behind it was pitiful.

Yes, boys' toys are nice, and the Focke-Wolf 190 is a beautiful plane. But even before the Battle of Britain was joined, the Luftwaffe did not have enough production even to make good the natural wastage from Me 109s crashing on take-off and landing and other accidents.

Elsewhere, the exploitation of resources was lousy; communities that could have been allies were victimised, and instead used as slave labour. Whole areas became fiefdoms of local gauleiters, all of whom fought with each other. If it were not for the genius of Albert Speer, the Germans would have collapsed by 1943.

As the photos suggest, these were ordinary people, dressed in silly uniforms, who thought they were geniuses, but were like school kids, playing with fancy toys, with no wider sense of the world.

 

[chris00nj]

...and from the United States, Hitler was enthusiastically and materially supported by many on the right wing, including Henry Ford, Charles Lindberg, and Prescott Bush.

Never forget.

Henry Ford, who hated Jews, ran for the Senate as a Democrat in Michigan. Hard to think he was "right wing" if he was a Democrat.

Prescott Bush owning shares in a company that did business in German is hardly an indicment of enthusiastically supporting Hitler.

You also forget that leftist hero, Democrat President Franklin Delano Roosevelt (FDR) refused to let Jewish refugees from Germany, on the M/S St. Louism take refuge in the United States in 1939. Instead he forced them to go back to Europe where most died in the Holocaust.



I come to RFF because it is an escape from politics. We can talk about historical nature of the photographs, but let's not interject modern day politicis in it. I think we all here agree that Hitler was evil

 

[sevo]

Henry Ford, who hated Jews, ran for the Senate as a Democrat in Michigan. Hard to think he was "right wing" if he was a Democrat.

Democrats and Republicans are hardly describable in terms of left and right - even less so back then...

 

[Jack Conrad]

My mother and father both taught me never to discuss religion or politics in polite company.
This relatively common lesson, I believe, has led to my rather stunted ability to discuss much of anything important. It's a shame really.
By the way, my family is of German origin. 😕

 

[Paul T.]

By the way, my family is of German origin. 😕

Nothing wrong with that, sir!

My dad has half-German ancestry, but he fled conscription, joined the French Resistance and then the Polish (Anders) Army.

His bro... joined the German army. But near the end of the war the Americans, being admirably pragmatic, let him swap teams, to the winning side. My dad has never told my mom about his bro's dark past!

Those photos are terrific, but we should use them to challenge our own smugness and complacency, not reinforce it.

 

[Roger Hicks]

My mother and father both taught me never to discuss religion or politics in polite company.
This relatively common lesson, I believe, has led to my rather stunted ability to discuss much of anything important. It's a shame really.
By the way, my family is of German origin. 😕

My parents always held the opposite view: that anyone who couldn't discuss religion or politics should not be allowed into polite company, as they would be incapable off civility under pressure.

Cheers,

R.

 

[peterm1]

That's one view. Which might be true.

Here's another view; which might be true.

The Germans frittered away their advantage via internecine rivalries and obsession with boys' toys (that's why we like them so much). The Me 262 looked great but was a logistical disaster - the engines lasted 20 hours, at best. The Gloucester Meteor was a far superior plane.

The Germans invested huge amounts in glamour projects like the V2 and V1 - really, their only value was as propaganda.

German tanks were often wilfully complicated; the Porsche Elefant, the Panther and its needlessly complicated suspension, the stupid King TIger which wouldn't fit many bridges. Compare that to the T-34 and Stalin tanks, which worked!

Where it mattered, in terms of intelligence, the Germans were woeful. The allies kept a fairly successful lead on them in terms of high technology, too; although their bombers had good direction-finding equipment in 1940, the allies, under RV JOnes, soon forged ahead. The allies also had the advantage in short wave radar (then given to the Americans), proximity fuses, Sonar, chaff, and countless other areas. Even though the Germans initially had superior radar, the information processing behind it was pitiful.

Yes, boys' toys are nice, and the Focke-Wolf 190 is a beautiful plane. But even before the Battle of Britain was joined, the Luftwaffe did not have enough production even to make good the natural wastage from Me 109s crashing on take-off and landing and other accidents.

Elsewhere, the exploitation of resources was lousy; communities that could have been allies were victimised, and instead used as slave labour. Whole areas became fiefdoms of local gauleiters, all of whom fought with each other. If it were not for the genius of Albert Speer, the Germans would have collapsed by 1943.

As the photos suggest, these were ordinary people, dressed in silly uniforms, who thought they were geniuses, but were like school kids, playing with fancy toys, with no wider sense of the world.

I think the above is very true. I also think that it has to do very much with Hitler's personal style. A style incidentally I have seen in psychopaths that I have had great the displeasure of working for. Hitler set up his underlings to compete with each other constantly - I think it was his way of staying on top. Like I said I have seen much lesser psychopaths in the workplace do just this. It keeps underlings off balance as they always know there is someone ready to screw them over and results in people in the system constantly vying for the fueher's attention and approbation. Just what your run of the mill psychopath loves. Other people sucking up. Even the V1 and V2 were examples - developed by different branches of the military more or less in competition.

I especially like your last sentence "As the photos suggest, these were ordinary people, dressed in silly uniforms, who thought they were geniuses, but were like school kids, playing with fancy toys, with no wider sense of the world."

I rather thought something similar when I looked at the images.........Along the lines of

"So YOU are a member of the master race ????? " You are kidding me you rat faced b##tard, you are a nothing more than proletariats and minor members of the petit bourgeisie dressed up in comic opera clothes and prancing about doing silly walks"

Sad thing is that it took 6 years of slaughter and the effort of most of the free world to prove it to be just so.

 

[semilog]

Henry Ford, who hated Jews, ran for the Senate as a Democrat in Michigan. Hard to think he was "right wing" if he was a Democrat.

Hated Jews, unions, public transportation. What this should tell you is *not* that Ford was liberal or left.

What it should tell you is that the simple formulation of GOP-right, Democratic Party-left that you're using has been fluid at the policy level during the last century, and is not historically accurate or incisive.

 

[semilog]

My parents always held the opposite view: that anyone who couldn't discuss religion or politics should not be allowed into polite company, as they would be incapable off civility under pressure.

Cheers,

R.

Sounds as though Roger lucked out in the parent-lottery. :^)

 

[semilog]

I especially like your last sentence "As the photos suggest, these were ordinary people, dressed in silly uniforms, who thought they were geniuses, but were like school kids, playing with fancy toys, with no wider sense of the world."

Yes, that's a really shrewd comment. It goes a long way toward explaining why humor at the expense of Nazis (& their ilk) can be so screamingly funny. I'm looking forward to Sasha Baron-Cohen's newest, The Dictator, for precisely that reason.

 

[Jack Conrad]

My parents always held the opposite view: that anyone who couldn't discuss religion or politics should not be allowed into polite company, as they would be incapable off civility under pressure.

Cheers,

R.

😱
Your parents were correct.

The method I was raised under was a great way to perpetuate ignorance... in politics most especially.

Not to say my upbringing was all wrong because of course it wasn't, just that it may have had a few similar characteristics as those of the German country folks prior to Hitlers rise.

My parents were simple farmers and did not understand nor care about such urbane topics as politics. Everything was about the farm and home and it was completely authoritarian. There were no options to discuss on the farm.

And discussing politics is all about discussing options for changing social conditions.

 

[jarski]

Here's another view; which might be true.

dont know if its very fair IMO 😉 did Gloucester Meteor ever see active war time use? but Luftwaffe's fancy ME-262's were pulled to runways with oxes towards end of war. to me it tells Germany lost the war not because lack of good tools, but obvious reasons with top management.

Hitler is often compared to his enemy Stalin. both were totally immoral, paranoid and neither didn't hesitate wasting human lives for what ever imagined reason. but Stalin was cynical and calculating, and when hesitating, he preferred do nothing. Hitler was hothead and gambler who would kept pushing his luck until it ran out.

 

[mfunnell]

dont know if its very fair IMO 😉 did Gloucester Meteor ever see active war time use?

I know guys who flew them in Korea (my father flew them, but not on wartime service). They weren't much chop at the air-to-air stuff but, to be fair, the competition (in the form of MiG-15s) was rather more modern. The Meteors did good work at air-to-mud tasks.

...Mike

 

[peterm1]

dont know if its very fair IMO 😉 did Gloucester Meteor ever see active war time use? but Luftwaffe's fancy ME-262's were pulled to runways with oxes towards end of war. to me it tells Germany lost the war not because lack of good tools, but obvious reasons with top management.

Hitler is often compared to his enemy Stalin. both were totally immoral, paranoid and neither didn't hesitate wasting human lives for what ever imagined reason. but Stalin was cynical and calculating, and when hesitating, he preferred do nothing. Hitler was hothead and gambler who would kept pushing his luck until it ran out.

As to the question of Meteor service in WW2, I think at least one squadron was equipped with them. I seem to recall that they were at least put to use knocking down V2 "buzz bombs".

Yes Hitler was a gambler and despite his early victories a bloody woeful general. He just could not help himself when it came to pushing his luck. Or more accurately the luck of his troops. It paid off early in the war for various reasons but was not a winning strategy in the long run - particularly since as the war went on he increasingly ignored the advice of his generals and backed his own crazy flawed judgment. It got so bad that in 1944 the British were contemplating assassinating him but called it off - largely as they had decided that Hitler was doing far too good a job of losing the war for them to get rid of him.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

I think you mean the Meteor was used against V1s. I doubt the Meteor could have caught up to a V2 in flight at all. 😉

 

[Sparrow]

The V1 flying bombs were engaged by AAA over land, and Mosquitoe, Spitfire and Typhoon aircraft over the Channel, they were controlled by the integrated air defence developed in 1940. Only 25% of the 190 launched each day actually reached there targets thanks to detection, air defence and counter espionage ... even us british can be efficient if pressed hard enough

 

[mfunnell]

The V1 flying bombs were engaged by AAA over land, and Mosquitoe, Spitfire and Typhoon aircraft over the Channel, they were controlled by the integrated air defence developed in 1940. Only 25% of the 190 launched each day actually reached there targets thanks to detection, air defence and counter espionage ... even us british can be efficient if pressed hard enough

True enough - aside from the extra 'e' in Mosquitoe 🙂, oh and that it was Tempests rather than Typhoons, for the most part if not entirely. The Meteors, when they became available, really did help as they didn't need to be in a dive to catch 'em. Only saying because I knew someone who was flying Tempests on that duty and really lusted after a chance to fly Meteors, but didn't get to 'till after the war.

The things you hear when you grow up in an air force....

...Mike

 

[Paul T.]

Yes, the Meteor was used to shoot down V1s - they were rarely used in the European field, because the allies didn't want the Germans to capture one and use the technology. Likewise other technology like proximity fuses, only used in London, never over Europe. It was slower than the Me262 - but its engines were far superior. Throughout the way the Germans were limited by their engine technology, which was just one of the reasons they never had a successful heavy bomber. Likewise, although they knew early on in the war that there would be a shortage of titanium, aluminium and other metals, they would never bite the bullet, like the Russians and Brits, and design a good wooden aeroplane - like the Mosquito which, if you shot one down, counted as two.

THere's a brilliant book called The Most Dangerous Enemy which goes into a lot of logistical detail about the Battle of Britain. It shows how, on many levels, the Germans were a shambles; many individual geniuses and superb ideas, but the system was flawed, because those people at the top were deluded.

Then of course there's the supreme irony that the Yanks, Brits and Russians hired 'em all after the war.

I haven't read Goering's diaries, as I don't want to go there, but part of me wants to; it would go well with those photos.


But do we all really want to know what they were thinking? It might be educational, but do we really want insight into the minds of those people?

 

[Sparrow]

True enough - aside from the extra 'e' in Mosquitoe 🙂, oh and that it was Tempests rather than Typhoons, for the most part if not entirely. The Meteors, when they became available, really did help as they didn't need to be in a dive to catch 'em. Only saying because I knew someone who was flying Tempests on that duty and really lusted after a chance to fly Meteors, but didn't get to 'till after the war.

The things you hear when you grow up in an air force....

...Mike

I don't think they were in meaningful numbers.