American car manufacturers-who needs them?

gb hill said:
Apparently you were not informed about the hundreds of votes that were found in the trunk of a car! This is the problem with people from other countries posting on global forums like rff. Our conservative & liberal views apparently are different than yours.
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Perhaps the courts weren't informed either, or they'd have decided by now. As you know full well, it is/was a VERY close election, and simplistic gibes such as 'stole' do not really boost your credibility much.

Besides, regardless of their opinion of Al Franken, very few non-Americans who have heard Limbaugh could fail to agree with the title of his book, 'Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot'.

I am not entirely ignorant of the United States. My wife of 27 years is American; I lived in the United States for five years, and have visited (sometimes for extended periods) on many occasions. The same news that is available to you on the internet is also available to me on the internet -- though presumably you'd just dismiss any report that doesn't fit your preconceptions as being 'liberal media'. Such as this one:

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/40850567.html?page=3&c=y

Be careful where you point the finger of ignorance, though, or you may find yourself pointing at a mirror.

Oh; and plenty of Americans regard 'liberal' as better than 'illiberal' too.

Cheers,

Roger
 
gb hill said:
I have no problem with some Dems. Coleman then should of stayed a Dem. BTW I haven't called any of you names. When I say ignorant it's not like I'm calling you stupid, I'm not. I'm the one being called names, not that I care. I'm kinda enjoying our discussion. besides it's no fun if everyone agrees all the time. As for your other post now that you explained yourself I understand now what you were saying. This thread is about American car companys.
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cool :)

My main point is that with government regulations & high taxes along with unions they did great damage to the companies that have trickled down over many years & now they have hit the bottom.
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See, here I disagree. In Minnesota we have a pretty nice standard of living all over the state. We have a half-way decent social safety net for people like my uncle who had a very hard time his whole life with depression and schizophrenia. It's paid for with taxes. Just like schools and stadiums and highways.

People come here for jobs and a better life from Chicago and all over the world. Despite the fact that we are constantly being told our "high" taxes are killing business. The fact is, our "No taxes" governor has us in a deficit situation because he was trying to spur development by cutting taxes without cutting services. (He tried cutting services and the people hollered for them back.) Nobody was hollering to reinstate or raise taxes, but that's what we need to do since nobody liked it when we cut services to save money.

Tax cuts don't generate enough additional spending to make up for the revenue loss. That much has been made clear.

I'm not eager to pay more in taxes, but I don't want to live without police or fire or subsidized medical for those who can't pay. Money in my pocket doesn't make up for those things. We don't let people die in the street here.
 
gb hill said:
$25.00 to $35.00 an hour is good money here in the US. I don't know where you get your information where they don't get good pay?
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You must be joking! This is not particularly well paid as an auto worker. It was, perhaps, back in 2001 when the US$ were back at it's high.

A worker at Volvo, Gothenburg, (owned by Ford, and the plant within the Ford Group with the highest worker salaries - and the highest efficiency) earns 100,000 US$ per year (according to a Forbes article of last summer. At the same time, the Oslo Ford dealer advertized for 'car mechanichs', offering 100.000 $ per year), - and they have 5 weeks holiday per year, - by Swedish law. High taxes, though, some 40% per year, but have health care for all and a governmental pension sceem that most can only dream of (Index regulated. NOT dependant on Wall Street ups and downs).

I could go on...
 
Olsen said:
You must be joking! This is not particularly well paid as an auto worker. It was, perhaps, back in 2001 when the US$ were back at it's high.

A worker at Volvo, Gothenburg, (owned by Ford, and the plant within the Ford Group with the highest worker salaries - and the highest efficiency) earns 100,000 US$ per year (according to a Forbes article of last summer. At the same time, the Oslo Ford dealer advertized for 'car mechanichs', offering 100.000 $ per year), - and they have 5 weeks holiday per year, - by Swedish law. High taxes, though, some 40% per year, but have health care for all and a governmental pension sceem that most can only dream of (Index regulated. NOT dependant on Wall Street ups and downs).

I could go on...
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Maybe, Olsen, but our workers are far better off because we don't have socialized healthcare! ;)
 
bmattock said:
AIG just got another 30 billion dollars by just asking for it. Said they might be back for more - potentially another 250 billion. Not one word, not one murmur of dissent from the Detroit-haters. NOT ONE WORD OF COMPLAINT.

Today, the FDIC told us that they need access to another 500 billion dollars - yes, half a trillion - to backstop and take over more failing banks. NOT ONE WORD OF COMPLAINT from most.

Detroit has asked for less money IN LOANS than the banks and brokerages gave their executives in bonuses after we bailed them out to the tune of 700 billion dollars. Oh, there was a minor burp of complaint about that, but nothing about letting the banks fail.

All those with all the hatred for Detroit - let other people do without jobs, let Michigan shut down entirely, let the US taxpayer have to take over all the pension funds from the failed automakers - as long as your ATM machine works, right?

We have given the banks and mortgage brokers ten times in handouts what the automakers are asking for in loans, but no, you WANT the automakers to fail, and if the banks fail, that might affect you personally, right?

The 'Stimulus Package' was supposed to CREATE JOBS. It would cheaper by far to just PAY the automakers to keep the workers on the payroll until the economy is back on its feet, but no, you'd rather let the automakers fail, and then spend billions more to try to create new jobs to replace the old ones - that makes NO SENSE, but you don't care.

It's a deep-seated hatred of the American automakers - and that is all it is. It's kind of sick, to be honest.
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I actually don't think anyone on Wall Street or Main Street (e.g. GM) who made poor choices should get one dime from the tax payers. The fastest way to recovery is to let matters run their course. The useful assets will be purchased by those that made proper decisions, new industries and firms will arise, and eventually new jobs and prosperity will be created. Propping this mess up with the remaining honest money is a recipe for failure if there ever was one.
 
Olsen said:
You must be joking! This is not particularly well paid as an auto worker. It was, perhaps, back in 2001 when the US$ were back at it's high.

A worker at Volvo, Gothenburg, (owned by Ford, and the plant within the Ford Group with the highest worker salaries - and the highest efficiency) earns 100,000 US$ per year (according to a Forbes article of last summer. At the same time, the Oslo Ford dealer advertized for 'car mechanichs', offering 100.000 $ per year), - and they have 5 weeks holiday per year, - by Swedish law. High taxes, though, some 40% per year, but have health care for all and a governmental pension sceem that most can only dream of (Index regulated. NOT dependant on Wall Street ups and downs).

I could go on...
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Well I lived and worked in Sweden (in Gothenburg as a matter of fact) for a year and I can tell you all: It is not a workers paradise - far from it. At the time I was there, there were shortages of housing and consumer goods. Taxes were extraordinarily high then, and I'm sure unbelievably high now. Most workers had little cash in their pockets at any given time since most of it went to the government. Most young Swedes I knew wanted to leave the country (many wanted to come to the US) and many did. It was a beautiful country however, but the climate was hard (but nice in the summer for sure).

I will say this for the Swedes: Despite the yoke of socialism under which they toil, they invented the Hasselblad, and that deserves a lot of credit!

I wish every American that opines for the US to become a European nanny-type socialist state could go there to live and work a year or two. Most would not like it.
 
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ebolton said:
Maybe, Olsen, but our workers are far better off because we don't have socialized healthcare! ;)
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For employers it is a disadvantage that 'the state' does not provide for 'health care for all' in the American society. It is one of the parameters that makes US less competitive. Not salaries as such.
 
Here's a thought: the billions continue to flow into Israel unabated. Why not use this money for something worthwhile?

Woops...may have gone off on a tangent there.
 
Olsen said:
You must be joking! This is not particularly well paid as an auto worker. It was, perhaps, back in 2001 when the US$ were back at it's high.

A worker at Volvo, Gothenburg, (owned by Ford, and the plant within the Ford Group with the highest worker salaries - and the highest efficiency) earns 100,000 US$ per year (according to a Forbes article of last summer. At the same time, the Oslo Ford dealer advertized for 'car mechanichs', offering 100.000 $ per year), - and they have 5 weeks holiday per year, - by Swedish law. High taxes, though, some 40% per year, but have health care for all and a governmental pension sceem that most can only dream of (Index regulated. NOT dependant on Wall Street ups and downs).

I could go on...
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Compared to the average $8.00 & $13.00 an hour which is pretty much the norm here in N.C. these wages auto makers recieve are good. That's what I'm referring to I have no idea about wages in European countries.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Perhaps the courts weren't informed either, or they'd have decided by now. As you know full well, it is/was a VERY close election, and simplistic gibes such as 'stole' do not really boost your credibility much.

Besides, regardless of their opinion of Al Franken, very few non-Americans who have heard Limbaugh could fail to agree with the title of his book, 'Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot'.

I am not entirely ignorant of the United States. My wife of 27 years is American; I lived in the United States for five years, and have visited (sometimes for extended periods) on many occasions. The same news that is available to you on the internet is also available to me on the internet -- though presumably you'd just dismiss any report that doesn't fit your preconceptions as being 'liberal media'. Such as this one:

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/40850567.html?page=3&c=y

Be careful where you point the finger of ignorance, though, or you may find yourself pointing at a mirror.

Oh; and plenty of Americans regard 'liberal' as better than 'illiberal' too.

Cheers,

Roger
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Ok my bad!...so trying to steal the election!
 
David Murphy said:
Well I lived and worked in Sweden (in Gothenburg as a matter of fact) for a year and I can tell you all: It is not a workers paradise - far from it. At the time I was there, there were shortages of housing and consumer goods. Taxes were extraordinarily high then, and I'm sure unbelievably high now. Most workers had little cash in their pockets at any given time since most of it went to the government. Most young Swedes I knew wanted to leave the country (many wanted to come to the US) and many did. It was a beautiful country however, but the climate was hard (but nice in the summer for sure).

I will say this for the Swedes: Despite the yoke of socialism under which they toil, they invented the Hasselblad, and that deserves a lot of credit!

I wish every American that opines for the US to become a European nanny-type socialist state could go there to live and work a year or two. Most would not like it.
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When was this? Consumer goods can't have been in shortage in Sweden since WWII. After all, the Swedes have among the highest purchasing powers of - the world. After taxes! There is no reason that consumer goods should not be available.

But shortage of housing could well be. All dependant on 'where' in Sweden you want to live. In Sweden you will find some of the most expensive - and some of the cheapest properties in Europe.

Taxes are still very high in Sweden. It gives an insight to 'what it costs' to live in a welfare state. Except for 40% tax on your salaries (all income less than 10,000 $ dollar is tax free), Swedes pay 20% VAT/sales tax, and heavy taxes on petrol, tobacco, alcohol etc.

But when Swedes pay taxes they expect the state to provide service. And it does.

For all these taxes they get public health care for all - practically free, almost free education for children through collage, and heavily subsidised university education. And the index regulated pension. Etc. etc.

I have this American neighbour here in Oslo, Norway. My age, he is looking forward to move back home to the US with his Norwegian pension (also index regulated etc.) and health care coverage etc.

With the times coming I see that more and more Americans will move to Europe (who wants to pay the interest of 11 Trilion dollars national debt as tax payers..?). And, as I have said before here; particularly to the young ones of you here: Move to Europe! And particularly Scandinavia.

Æhum, I hardly think that 'Swedish workers' find USA such a attractive place. Sweden has today a conservative government, by the way.
 
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calexg said:
Here's a thought: the billions continue to flow into Israel unabated. Why not use this money for something worthwhile?

Woops...may have gone off on a tangent there.
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I won't even go there because I would have to quote the Bible on what G-D says about Israel in prophecy! Let me say this...your post is directly inline with what G-D said will be in the heart's in the people against Israel in the end times. Talk about compassion...:rolleyes:
 
gb hill said:
Compared to the average $8.00 & $13.00 an hour which is pretty much the norm here in N.C. these wages auto makers receive are good. That's what I'm referring to I have no idea about wages in European countries.
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Help! These are 3. world salaries!
 
Roger Hicks said:
Perhaps the courts weren't informed either, or they'd have decided by now. As you know full well, it is/was a VERY close election, and simplistic gibes such as 'stole' do not really boost your credibility much.

Besides, regardless of their opinion of Al Franken, very few non-Americans who have heard Limbaugh could fail to agree with the title of his book, 'Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot'.

I am not entirely ignorant of the United States. My wife of 27 years is American; I lived in the United States for five years, and have visited (sometimes for extended periods) on many occasions. The same news that is available to you on the internet is also available to me on the internet -- though presumably you'd just dismiss any report that doesn't fit your preconceptions as being 'liberal media'. Such as this one:

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/40850567.html?page=3&c=y

Be careful where you point the finger of ignorance, though, or you may find yourself pointing at a mirror.

Oh; and plenty of Americans regard 'liberal' as better than 'illiberal' too.

Cheers,

Roger
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Roger I'm aware when I point my finger I have 3 others pointing back at me. I don't know it all I will admit but I do have principals and on these I stand my ground.
 
David Murphy said:
I actually don't think anyone on Wall Street or Main Street (e.g. GM) who made poor choices should get one dime from the tax payers. The fastest way to recovery is to let matters run their course. The useful assets will be purchased by those that made proper decisions, new industries and firms will arise, and eventually new jobs and prosperity will be created. Propping this mess up with the remaining honest money is a recipe for failure if there ever was one.
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Generally, I agree with you on this. Regarding the banks: I think the president should concentrate on saving people's savings and pensions, - up to a reasonable limit. And nationalize the banks, fire the CEO's and write the shareholders values to nill. It is called 'the Swedish solution', actually.

When it comes to the auto industry, the US government must be just as little blush about giving them subsidies as the European and Japanese competitors do. Otherwise they can't compete. The US government could cover certain 'development costs' - like they do for their own weapons industry.

(Hum. There is a good old fashioned 'western' on Norwegian TV tonight. Makes me want to go to America!)
 
I can probably agree with everyone on the Healthcare issue. But I agree with Olsen that instead of focusing on health care President Obama should be looking at the plunge in the markets, I just think Obama has his priorities backwards.
 
I work for a company with unusually high ethics and financial transparency. Seeing what we are going through, I agree with President Obama that reforming health care is a prerequisite for fixing the overall ecomomy. Personally, I don't think the USA can ever be competitive again from a global perspective unless we can get the middlemen of the health insurance industry out of that position and into something productive. It will take a lot of retraining and they won't like it, but they are not adding value for the country as a whole in the current system.
 
ebolton said:
I work for a company with unusually high ethics and financial transparency. Seeing what we are going through, I agree with President Obama that reforming health care is a prerequisite for fixing the overall ecomomy. Personally, I don't think the USA can ever be competitive again from a global perspective unless we can get the middlemen of the health insurance industry out of that position and into something productive. It will take a lot of retraining and they won't like it, but they are not adding value for the country as a whole in the current system.
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I think it is unethical that the health care industry shall be private companies making profit on peoples illnesses. But the US health care industry is a trillion dollar monster that is raking in billions. They will be impossible to fight. The president who try should avoid grassy knolls and open cars....
 
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