Amtrak to Photographers: "Drop Dead!"

[bmattock]

http://nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2009/01/amtrak01.html

NPPA Offers To Work With Amtrak To Resolve Photography Issues

By Donald R. Winslow
© 2009 News Photographer magazine

DURHAM, NC (January 23, 2009) – In early January the National Press Photographers Association's general legal counsel asked Amtrak to stop harassing photographers and to take "immediate steps" to remedy the railroad's "unconstitutional treatment of law-abiding photographers."

The railroad's response? "Amtrak denies any allegation that it [has] acted in an unconstitutional manner," the railroad's associate general counsel David J. Domzalski said this week in a letter to NPPA's general legal counsel Mickey H. Osterreicher.

NPPA's letter came after complaints by photographers of harassment and the arrests of several photographers who were confronted by Amtrak officials or the railways's police officers while they were lawfully taking pictures in public places.

I love this part:

Domzalski also said Amtrak does restrict photography "in areas restricted to the public, such as right of ways and posted no trespassing areas. It is also limited on train platforms to ticket passengers who may do so briefly prior to boarding or departing from a train."

Interesting that the case that caused all this recent activity was a ticketed Amtrak passenger, on the PUBLIC PLATFORM, waiting for his train, who took photos in order to COMPETE IN A PHOTO CONTEST RUN BY AMTRAK.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/Conte...News_Release_Page&c=am2Copy&cid=1178294152323

http://www.gadling.com/2009/01/06/amtrak-photo-contest-participant-arrested-by-amtrak-police/

Amtrak: Please enter our photography contest - so we can arrest you!

A real shame - I like Amtrak, I like passenger rail travel, and I often take the train rather than fly. But this is just so much crap. They need to get their head and ass wired together, pronto.

 

[aizan]

they probably don't want any cameras around the next time one of their trains crashes and kills a bunch of people. 🙁

 

[Beemermark]

I was living in Wilmington, DE in 2005 when Amtrak was running a big publicity event for the best Amtrak Photo (to be used in promotional advertisement). I also like trains so while waiting for the train to NYC I was snapping a few photos on the loading platform. Just like in the movies two un-uniformed Amtrak employees came up and gave me the third degree. For a few minutes I was very afraid they were going to confiscate my M4. They basically told me to stop taking photos and leave. I said I have to get on the train so they escorted me aboard with a warning.

After that I took all my photos parked along side I-295 with a Nikon and tele-photo!

 

[Bob Michaels]

Six months ago I challenged an Amtrak conductor who told me I could not photograph aboard the train. I insisted that he show me something in writing in the big policy manual they carry. I stayed on his heels continuously for about ten minutes until he sat down with the policy book.

I was taking notes, asking him to confirm the spelling of his name, the train number, location, time and date as he leafed through the book. Then he got on the phone.

Finally he apologized and acknowledged his error. I went back to photographing but did avoid photographing him.

 

[bmattock]

Six months ago I challenged an Amtrak conductor who told me I could not photograph aboard the train. I insisted that he show me something in writing in the big policy manual they carry. I stayed on his heels continuously for about ten minutes until he sat down with the policy book.

I was taking notes, asking him to confirm the spelling of his name, the train number, location, time and date as he leafed through the book. Then he got on the phone.

Finally he apologized and acknowledged his error. I went back to photographing but did avoid photographing him.

I have had nothing but good experiences - but it really bothers me that Amtrak is doing this. Clearly I just haven't yet had the pleasure of being stopped from taking a photo on Amtrak - at some point, I probably will be.

 

[Al Patterson]

I have had nothing but good experiences - but it really bothers me that Amtrak is doing this. Clearly I just haven't yet had the pleasure of being stopped from taking a photo on Amtrak - at some point, I probably will be.

Nice shot BTW. I recently went from Delaware to California and back by train, and had no problems taking pictures of the train or from the train.

I've also had problems in the Wilmington Amtrak station. I was trying to take pictures on Tranportation Day, and while I shot plenty from the low level Septa platform, I was prevented from going up to the Amtrak platform by the Police.

At least they knew enough not to try to take my camera though.

 

[Ken Ford]

I shoot Amtrak all the time and have never had an issue.

 

[bmattock]

I shoot Amtrak all the time and have never had an issue.

Neither have I. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

 

[Bike Tourist]

I've had no Amtrak issues with photography or bicycles (they've always accomodated me) but it must be a regional issue or even a local one. There are people everywhere these days with a sort of psuedo-cop mentality who, with limited or no actual authority, think they may question photographers' purposes and intents. I guess the interior of an Amtrak car and the boarding areas are private just because Amtrak is not really a government entity, so they may have the authority to ban photography, even for silly or imagined reasons.

 

[bmattock]

I guess the interior of an Amtrak car and the boarding areas are private just because Amtrak is not really a government entity, so they may have the authority to ban photography, even for silly or imagined reasons.

Amtrak is a US government-owned corporation. The US government owns 100% of all preferred shares. Amtrak is funded by the government, and the directors of the Amtrak corporation are subject to confirmation by the US Senate.

It is public-owned, as is the TVA, the US Postal Service, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. We (US citizens) own it, it is public by nature.

That is not to say that photography cannot be banned on public property - it can. Clearly, the military does so all the time. However, in general, photography and other rights possessed by citizens are not infringed on a whim on government property.

The US Postal Service, another government-owned corporation (and thus, owned by US citizens) has a stated policy on photograph that is not dissimilar to Amtrak's stated policy:

http://www.usps.com/rightsandpermissions/trademark-image-usage.htm

Still Photography
For Personal Use: Informal snapshots from handheld cameras for personal use may be allowed at the discretion of the postmaster so long as there is no disruption to Postal Service operations and provided the pictures are taken from areas accessible to the public. In these cases, no prior permission is required from the Office of Rights and Permissions; however, no lighting or scaffolding may be set up, and Postal Service employees, customers, cover of mail and security cameras cannot be depicted in the pictures. Postmasters may restrict any and all photography if they determine that it is disruptive or there are potential security concerns.

The problem, as usual, is not in the rules, but in how they are enforced.

In the case cited by the NPPA, the photographer in question was clearly within the rules established by Amtrak - he was in a public-accessible area, he did have a ticket, he was waiting on his train, and he took photos - all clearly allowed by Amtrak's rules. He was arrested anyway. That is the problem, not the rules, per se.

Amtrak's response to the NPPA, as I posted above, seems to make it clear that they will interpret the rules any way they wish - you may take photos 'briefly'. How long is 'briefly'? Whatever they think it is that day, apparently.

Not good. Not good at all. We do not live in a dictatorship.

 

[amateriat]

Having photographed all sorts of railroad-related things over the last 35(!) years, I've had some colorful run-ins with RR police, rent-a-cops and other personnel. Way too often, it depends on the day and the person you're dealing with that day. And it depends on the railroad: some roads have made a point of strictly prohibiting photography of any sort, while others (BNSF comes to mind specifically) not only allow it (under common-sense safety conditions), but even give you a shot–ahem–of having your photo included in their company calendar. Good free PR, I'd say.

Funny Amtrak story: in 1980, I was photographing trackside along rhe Hudson Line a bit south of the Bear Mountain Bridge. I did get bit of aggro from RR personnel, but managed to get a few interesting shots, including a nice sweeping shot of an Amtrak Turboliner. A few years later, during a conversation with a freind, who was then Executive Editor of Railway Age (a trade publication), he mentioned an article they were creating on Amtrak's future (seems like there's been an article written on that subject every five years since their creation), and they needed a few good photos. I told him I had some, and brought them over to his office a few days later. They loved the Turbo shot, paid me for one-time usage rights, and ran it (with a credit, of course...those were the days).

Turboliner, October 1980

(Technical: Canon F-1, FD 24mm f/2.8, K64, f/8 @ 1/250 sec.)*

A few months after that issue went to press, the Editor called to tell me that Amtrak's President at the time (former Southern Railway chief Graham Claytor Jr.) loved the photo. Didn't mention what Claytor thought of the article itself, but that was enough for me. 🙂


- Barrett

*Please don't ask why I happened to remember all that.

 

[retnull]

Amtrak, what a sorry excuse for a train line: poorly run and overpriced. You'll find better, more efficient, more comfortable trains in Third World nations.

 

[sepiareverb]

No problems in Poughkeepsie at the train station- and I was surprised- thought we'd get hassled. Got more trouble from University Security at Vassar.

 

[bmattock]

Amtrak, what a sorry excuse for a train line: poorly run and overpriced. You'll find better, more efficient, more comfortable trains in Third World nations.

Actually, I quite like Amtrak, and I've taken trains in a number of nations, so I do have something to compare them with. I don't like the fact that they are perpetually underfunded, so things like bathrooms on trains don't get maintained properly.

I don't like that Amtrak doesn't own the tracks they run on, so freight always has the right of way (outside of the northeast, that is). I've been on trains that were sidelined for 12 hours while a freight was cleared from tracks ahead, and been on trains that backed up a hundred miles to a switch to get out of the way of a freight. Not fun.

I don't like that they don't like to tell people in the station how late the train REALLY is - they just keep saying 'one hour late' until they finally quit saying anything at all - I've waiting 12 hours in a train station for a train that was 'one hour late'. That's bad policy, in my opinion. Tell the truth.

I *do* like the employees, nearly all of whom I've found to be decent, kind, and friendly people who genuinely like their jobs.

I *do* like the laid-back and relaxed atmosphere onboard the trains. I have had some issues with parents who think the train is the babysitter of their little monsters, but mostly that can be avoided, and unlike airplanes, I have seen Amtrak employees herd the juvenile future felons back to non-caring mom and baby-daddy and tell them that yes, they CAN be put off the train at the next stop, and will too, unless Junior stops digging in people's luggage and saying "gimme quarter" to everyone he sees.

I *love* the food in the restaurant cars. They really try, and it shows. The snack car? Eh, just overpriced snacks, like movie food.

In general, I'm a railfan, and I love Amtrak (although I am looking forward to trying VIA Rail Canada soon).

But this photography nonsense has got to be sorted out.

And as regards the perpetual funding fiasco - Amtrak will never be self-sufficient - national rail systems generally aren't. We as a nation either have to get serious about funding it because it is right to do so, or spin it off private and let it fail, but then no more whining about Senators and Congressmen being unable to take the Acela home on weekends. Frankly, I think it should be fully funded. It is such a drop in the bucket compared to everything else we fund, and it gives us back quite a bit.

 

[amateriat]

Bill: Let's just say that I dig your mood. 🙂

Pretty much everything you've said regarding Amtrak is spot-on. I actually like getting where I want to go via train as well (and fly when I absolutely must), but Amtrak has had a tough row to hoe from the very beginning. I happen to believer that having a solid rail network on this continent is important, and not simply because I have a thing for trains. But I won't get into that here since, like politics, it can become a bit of a third-rail issue (you wouldn't believe the food-fights I've gotten into on this subject alone, both online and off).

At least Amtrak owns the tracks (mostly) along the Northeast Corridor, "Home of the Acela."


- Barrett

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

There is no possible way that a government or its entities could ever do anything wrong. Ever.