Huss
Veteran
Yup, they are repackaging defective 19Ms as new, luxury cameras.
And another new 35mm film SLR: Ihagee Elbaflex
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Yup, they are repackaging defective 19Ms as new, luxury cameras.
mich rassena
Well-known
The hero image of the camera with the wood grip and leather does not inspire any confidence. In my personal opinion, looks very amateur. If the wrapping is that bad, what is underneath? Well, for $299 you can find out. Back in film's heyday, that wasn't a bad price for a fully functional SLR, but those days are gone. It's just too easy to pick up a fully functional Nikon for much less. The only reason I'd want a Kiev 19 would be for the novelty, and novelty isn't worth much.
Huss
Veteran
BOOM! $75 including lens
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kiev-19M-C...971180?hash=item1c991e1a6c:g:TkoAAOSwCJxaGOTy
Hannes
Established
For the Europeans,
if you want a complete outfit
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=352048745461&alt=web
Brandnew from Kiev in Ukraine
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=271090133262&alt=web
They will become collectors items 🙂
Hannes
Huss
Veteran
Wow you Euros are getting ripped off! That's between $100 - $400 more than the US one!
mich rassena
Well-known
still too much!
Huss
Veteran
3 days to go, only half way there, and the creators of "Ihagee" have not responded to any questions from backers in 8 days.
I think they've realized that not enough have swallowed this BS.
I think they've realized that not enough have swallowed this BS.
bayernfan
Well-known
it's an "all or nothing" project.
the uneducated backers are very fortunate to be receiving refunds.
the uneducated backers are very fortunate to be receiving refunds.
jarski
Veteran
just spotted in local auction site Kiev-19M & 2/50 Arsat sell for 69,95€. seller probably knows nothing about this kickstarter thing. maybe I should buy it just to see how amazing the Ihagee Elbaflex would have been 🙂
Mistral75
Member
The Ihagee Elbaflex project failed on Kickstarter.
They gathered pledges amounting to $29,868, versus a goal set at $50,000, from 65 backers who ordered 49 cameras and 5 lenses.
Since it was an ‘all or nothing’ project, it is over.
They gathered pledges amounting to $29,868, versus a goal set at $50,000, from 65 backers who ordered 49 cameras and 5 lenses.
Since it was an ‘all or nothing’ project, it is over.
zuiko85
Veteran
No surprise. If it really cost $300 each to make a new, very basic unmetered 35MM SLR then the market does not exist, despite the small bump in film sales.
There are just too many other options in used cameras for much less money.
There are just too many other options in used cameras for much less money.
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
Well, I am not surprised, now, that the kickstarter failed; as was pointed out here too many parts of their proposal just didn't add up.
Too bad, I think. Not that this one failed but that the project was, apparently, such a cynical rehash of old FSU gear.
If some one had proposed to do something like ARAX has done for the K-60 and K-88 cameras and been explicit that they were rebuilding or "blueprinting" the cameras, that would really get my attention and, possibly, my money.
I believe that there is a market--certainly small--for a new basic 35mm SLR. Thinking about the Bessaflex here. Those were metered and have a much better range of shutter speeds but still fairly basic.
I could see the few existing companies that would actually be capable of a project like this using kickstarter as a way of judging sales but why would they? If any of those manufacturers wanted to build a new basic film SLR, it seems likely that they would do some kind of pre-order.
And, they'd have to decide about lenses--offer some crippled version of current AF lenses or offer just the body for people to source their own MF lenses for. That's not likely given the small market for such a camera.
Rob
Too bad, I think. Not that this one failed but that the project was, apparently, such a cynical rehash of old FSU gear.
If some one had proposed to do something like ARAX has done for the K-60 and K-88 cameras and been explicit that they were rebuilding or "blueprinting" the cameras, that would really get my attention and, possibly, my money.
I believe that there is a market--certainly small--for a new basic 35mm SLR. Thinking about the Bessaflex here. Those were metered and have a much better range of shutter speeds but still fairly basic.
I could see the few existing companies that would actually be capable of a project like this using kickstarter as a way of judging sales but why would they? If any of those manufacturers wanted to build a new basic film SLR, it seems likely that they would do some kind of pre-order.
And, they'd have to decide about lenses--offer some crippled version of current AF lenses or offer just the body for people to source their own MF lenses for. That's not likely given the small market for such a camera.
Rob
Huss
Veteran
The Reflex campaign succeeded - it is funded.
Ihagee failed.
They actually were asking pretty much the same money for both cameras. Difference being the Reflex was an all new design with some really cool features and spec, the Ihagee was dusted off surplus Kiev 19s with broken meters that they attempted to pawn off onto suckers.
Ihagee failed.
They actually were asking pretty much the same money for both cameras. Difference being the Reflex was an all new design with some really cool features and spec, the Ihagee was dusted off surplus Kiev 19s with broken meters that they attempted to pawn off onto suckers.
zuiko85
Veteran
I have sitting in front of me a Sears KS 500 with a 50mm f2 standard lens. (Rebadged Ricoh KR5 with 50mm f2 Rikenon).
It is working perfectly including the meter, has a PK mount, and was $5 at a photo show. Now that was a bargain I know, less than the average e-bay price for a similar camera and I could check it out personally before I parted with my 'coffee money'. But at the going rate of $20~$50 on the big auction site for a Ricoh KR5 (or similar) any new, meterless, 35mm SLR body only would have to sell for less than $150 to have any chance at all. And I just don't think anyone could break even on such a low price point. Ergo, there is no market for the Elbaflex camera (as presented) at this time.
That leaves us with one new 35mm SLR in current (very) limited production, the Nikon F6 at $2500 for a body.
Pioneer
Veteran
First off, the disclaimer; I am not picking on Zuiko85 specifically, only using this post as an example of a type.
All posts of this type assume that all everyone wants are used cameras. Or...perhaps worse yet...all they really should have is a used camera.
I don't believe that to be true. There really are people in this world who enjoy using film enough to go out and buy a new camera for it.
Personally I think that this is a very defeatist attitude, and wrong as well. If this were really true then you wouldn't see any new car dealers. There would only be used car dealers because there are certainly more than enough used cars out there to keep everyone happy. There will always be those few used cars out there that are barely used and are real bargains. The same is true of cameras.
I don't see Lomo selling old, used cameras to their customers. Do you? Not everyone may love the types of cameras that Lomo is selling, but they are new ones. This is because they do know what their customers want. Think what you want of the Lomo group, they believe enough in film to sell NEW cameras that use film. Most people who would consider using film along with digital are not interested in spending the time on EBay or at flea markets to find some old camera that may, or may not, work.
For myself, I shoot film and digital. I bought a new digital camera a few years back and still use it. I also bought a new film camera a few years back and use that one as well.
The 2nd point I have to make is this...if there is no longer any market for new cameras then film really is dead.
zuiko85
Veteran
Not feeling picked on at all Pioneer. You make valid points.
And yes, there really are people out who would go out and buy a new film camera. Maybe even enough to sustain a small company....and maybe not. If Nikon could not sell enough FM10's (and granted, the price went up to over $500) to continue offering a 35mm SLR with a reasonable price, and with their very good name on it to push sales. Then, my point is, the market, although it does exist, is just too small.
All the caveats you mention about buying used cameras (especially for a neophyte) are true, no argument there.
But, unfortunately for the dream of a new production 35mm SLR, until the flood of used but serviceable cameras (even adding the cost of refurbishment) dries up it's going to be hard to make and sell a new SLR.
Not sure about the used/new automobile analogy. For 99% of car owners transportation is a necessity. For 99% of film camera owners it is a hobby, and if push comes to shove, money for food, shelter, and clothing have priority over money for a hobby. I have personal experience regarding the last sentence. (As I imagine a lot of folks on this forum do.)
Disclaimer: Percentage statistics mentioned in my post are a WAG (wild ass guess) and may bear no similarly to reality.
Mistral75
Member
The Reflex campaign raised £131,964 from 464 backers who ordered in total 262 Reflex cameras, 105 lenses (refurbished Helios-44 58mm f/2 and Pentacon 50mm f/1.8 lenses) and various accessories.
This is indeed a success (their goal was set at £100,000 with a £150,000 stretched goal) but the numbers (262 cameras, 105 refurbished lenses) are quite small. It would be difficult for any company to make a living out of this.
This is indeed a success (their goal was set at £100,000 with a £150,000 stretched goal) but the numbers (262 cameras, 105 refurbished lenses) are quite small. It would be difficult for any company to make a living out of this.
zuiko85
Veteran
Having backed several Kickstarter campaigns less technical than this one, I shall reserve judgement until 262 reliable, working cameras are in the hands of backers. Estimated delivery, August 2018, that is only 9 months and is probably too optimistic as they run into the realities of trying to mass produce and assemble components, even large established camera companies have stumbled trying to introduce a new camera. I'd say give it two years to be fair.
Huss
Veteran
That gets them going and enables an actual product to be offered with visibility. Then you will see the big name camera stores (and maybe others) carrying them, providing visibility to others looking for a new film camera who were unaware of the kickstarter campaign.
I only knew of if because I spend too much time on websites full of curmudgeonly people complaining about the death of film and how you'd be nuts if you didn't buy the same old mildewy camera that they are using. That most prob needs a major CLA.
Try to explain to someone what a CLA is who is a newbie. And who they need to send it to. And how much it will cost. And how long that will take.
As our esteemed Pioneer mentioned, there very much is a market for new cameras. Especially an all new design that brings really cool things to the table.
The Nikon FM10 'failed' because honestly it is a horrible piece of plastic that is not even made by Nikon, but one that they asked crazy money for at the end. I used one and the feeling I got was they gotta be ***** me asking that kind of money for it.
If Reflex gets Lomo to carry this, as well as B&H etc, they will do very well. i have a lot of cameras, and none of them are like this one. That is a good thing.
zuiko85
Veteran
No argument about a market for new film cameras. Just for this thread, since both KS campaigns were for 35mm SLR cameras (granted with different levels of features) Lets limit the type of camera under discussion to that type.
Yes, there is a market, but my main concern is, at what price point. And can a robust reliable camera be built at that price point.
Also what features? My personal preferences are not the same as other customers. (and are no more valid). Another factor is that old guys already know what we like, a neophyte just starting out in film has not developed those preferences yet. So...what do you build? What lens mount? You ask ten contributors to this forum and you are likely to get at least 5 or 6 different answers.
More questions. Auto focus or not? Battery dependent or fully mechanical?
I just think that if you asked "How many would consider buying a new SLR?" Then a lot of hands would go up. But then if the price has to be $500 for a basic body, how many would actually buy it at that price.
If you are going to make new film cameras someone should also make new lenses for them. Who is going to do that? How much will they cost? Should they be solid, well damped and smooth manual focus, or plastic autofocus, Mechanical linkage to stop down the lens or a solenoid built into the lens signaled from the body through gold plated contacts.
Personally if I had independent wealth so that I could start a camera company I'd reintroduce a OM-1n and 5 or 6 primes between 28mm and 200mm.
But that's just me.
Yes, there is a market, but my main concern is, at what price point. And can a robust reliable camera be built at that price point.
Also what features? My personal preferences are not the same as other customers. (and are no more valid). Another factor is that old guys already know what we like, a neophyte just starting out in film has not developed those preferences yet. So...what do you build? What lens mount? You ask ten contributors to this forum and you are likely to get at least 5 or 6 different answers.
More questions. Auto focus or not? Battery dependent or fully mechanical?
I just think that if you asked "How many would consider buying a new SLR?" Then a lot of hands would go up. But then if the price has to be $500 for a basic body, how many would actually buy it at that price.
If you are going to make new film cameras someone should also make new lenses for them. Who is going to do that? How much will they cost? Should they be solid, well damped and smooth manual focus, or plastic autofocus, Mechanical linkage to stop down the lens or a solenoid built into the lens signaled from the body through gold plated contacts.
Personally if I had independent wealth so that I could start a camera company I'd reintroduce a OM-1n and 5 or 6 primes between 28mm and 200mm.
But that's just me.
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