Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Question: Arista Premium 400 is equivalent to Tri-X, or it is Tri-X? If it really is Tri-X, does that mean it's made by Kodak, perhaps in bulk, and then packaged elsewhere as TX?
Another battle in the war on film
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Chris101
summicronia
Fortunately, in my location there are 3 stores that still cater to film photographers, My favorite one is Tempe Camera. Almost any kind of film I want, six different developers the last time I looked (about a month ago) all the rest of the chemistry, paper, darkroom tools - even enlargers. Plus Tempe and Photomark carry a huge selection of used gear. Right now, P'mark has a 0.95 Noctilux in their used case for thousands less than the sticker price on a new one! And the repair staff at Tempe means all my cameras are in tip-top condition (I must confess, I did send my OM to John at Camtech, but Joe at Tempe did a great cla on my Leica.)
Phoenix is weird too - we knock buildings down after standing for 20 years, but there are probably more film photographers here that anywhere.
Phoenix is weird too - we knock buildings down after standing for 20 years, but there are probably more film photographers here that anywhere.
Chris101
summicronia
They don't say, but do a search on it here. Most people believe that your latter explanation is correct.
Brian Puccio
Well-known
T,FTFY.
"Stores" aren't around selling you things because it gives them the warm and fuzzies to support either your hobbies or professions, they're there to make money.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
That's right, the business of film is moving to the internet. In my earlier post in this thread I mentioned stores in my area that are stocking film again, but the far bigger choice of films, paper and chemistry can be found with the internet stores included in that same post.
Arjay
Time Traveller
The analog photography market has changed in recent years from a mass market to being a 'long tail' business.
'Long tail' is a marketing term that refers to a specific spectrum of customer needs: Consider that sales figures in the photography market follow a bell-shaped curve, with sales numbers on the vertical axis and demand on the horizontal axis.
On the demand axis, customer needs range from low-end, low tech via mainstream to high-end / high-tech, with oddball needs being at the extreme ends of the horizontal axis' value range.
Obviously, digital photo gear is today's mainstream, with highest sales numbers - it thus represents the peak of the bell curve.
Of course, that doesn't mean that analog photography, cameras, film, chemistry and paper is not available any more - but there's no doubt that their corresponding sales figures are lower. These types of products are located somewhere on the lower, flatter sections of that bell curve - they are part of the 'long tail'.
This type of a market structure has direct consequences for retailers: They either concentrate on mainstream products, which they can sell locally in their stores, where they will be able to attract large numbers of customers that will yield them reasonable turnover and profit.
Alternatively, they could focus their business on the longer, flatter parts of the curve. Consequently, they will carry a different - often wider - selection of merchandise that is geared toward specialist customers who are looking for a wider spectrum of less-common products (those at the 'long tail'). If such a store is located in a large city, it might still attract enough walk-in customers to remain viable.
If the store is in a less-populated or in a highly competitive area, it will have to look for other ways to expand its reach. The classic setup for this kind of business in the past was mail-order - today this domain has shifted to the internet. There's obviously still some competition between brick-and-mortar and mail-order stores, and that generates a lot of discussion about customers who talk to physical salespeople, but then buy from a virtual store in the internet. That's a pity, and a waste of resources, but I suspect this is also a consequence of a store owner not having optimized his own marketing concept.
I think that if a store owner decides to not carry products for analog photography any more, he might quite probably make a sound business decision, unless he tries to find ways to expand his market reach e.g. by also selling his merchandise via the internet.
Consequence: Film is not dieing, but it has become a long-tail market. You should not be surprised to find you will only be able to continue buying from manufacturers and retailers who have adapted to this changing market. To whine about neighborhood shops dropping film is to ignore that the market has changed. You as a customer need to change too: Either go with the mainstream and go digital or accept being on the 'long tail' and use specialized 'long tail' retailers.
'Long tail' is a marketing term that refers to a specific spectrum of customer needs: Consider that sales figures in the photography market follow a bell-shaped curve, with sales numbers on the vertical axis and demand on the horizontal axis.
On the demand axis, customer needs range from low-end, low tech via mainstream to high-end / high-tech, with oddball needs being at the extreme ends of the horizontal axis' value range.
Obviously, digital photo gear is today's mainstream, with highest sales numbers - it thus represents the peak of the bell curve.
Of course, that doesn't mean that analog photography, cameras, film, chemistry and paper is not available any more - but there's no doubt that their corresponding sales figures are lower. These types of products are located somewhere on the lower, flatter sections of that bell curve - they are part of the 'long tail'.
This type of a market structure has direct consequences for retailers: They either concentrate on mainstream products, which they can sell locally in their stores, where they will be able to attract large numbers of customers that will yield them reasonable turnover and profit.
Alternatively, they could focus their business on the longer, flatter parts of the curve. Consequently, they will carry a different - often wider - selection of merchandise that is geared toward specialist customers who are looking for a wider spectrum of less-common products (those at the 'long tail'). If such a store is located in a large city, it might still attract enough walk-in customers to remain viable.
If the store is in a less-populated or in a highly competitive area, it will have to look for other ways to expand its reach. The classic setup for this kind of business in the past was mail-order - today this domain has shifted to the internet. There's obviously still some competition between brick-and-mortar and mail-order stores, and that generates a lot of discussion about customers who talk to physical salespeople, but then buy from a virtual store in the internet. That's a pity, and a waste of resources, but I suspect this is also a consequence of a store owner not having optimized his own marketing concept.
I think that if a store owner decides to not carry products for analog photography any more, he might quite probably make a sound business decision, unless he tries to find ways to expand his market reach e.g. by also selling his merchandise via the internet.
Consequence: Film is not dieing, but it has become a long-tail market. You should not be surprised to find you will only be able to continue buying from manufacturers and retailers who have adapted to this changing market. To whine about neighborhood shops dropping film is to ignore that the market has changed. You as a customer need to change too: Either go with the mainstream and go digital or accept being on the 'long tail' and use specialized 'long tail' retailers.
**** changes, get over it. 😉
atlcruiser
Part Yeti
We have at least 3 local shops sellign film, paper and chemicals. 2 of them keep a very good stock at OK prices.
I strongly want to support my local vendors but I still buy 90% on line. It comes down to money on the expendiables. I will still buy hard items such as tripods and such locally to try and help them out when I can.
I have KEH near me so I go there quite a bit 🙂
I strongly want to support my local vendors but I still buy 90% on line. It comes down to money on the expendiables. I will still buy hard items such as tripods and such locally to try and help them out when I can.
I have KEH near me so I go there quite a bit 🙂
Jason Sprenger
Well-known
In the move from mass market to something else, I wonder if art supply stores aren't missing a bet here. Granted, it won't be like it was with dedicated shops, but the basics for B & W film and processing likely would appeal to the creative clientele of an art supply store.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Good observation.
I talked to a local Arts and Supply store manager, and the answer is still a big and distant "Maybe"
Very puzzling to my mind as some of these stores have what most of us (individuals) are lacking, inventory and a place where people can and will pay to learn how to do "fine-art" photography.
Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
I can understand people being dismayed - but not amazed or surprised, the inevitable has slowly been happening for a long time now!....I've got over it, and go out and take pictures.....life's too short! 🙄
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
I hope you are right. But I can only believe this when I hear Kodak and others say that their films sales have stopped declining. I haven't looked at others, but Kodak (at least as recently as a few months ago) said film sales were continuing to tumble.
It's easy to mistake anecdotal stories for true trends. But if you have 10 stores selling something. And then nine of them stop, it stands to reason that sales will rise at the remaining store (at least for a while.)
Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
Quite! - and it seems the shops selling 'rose coloured glasses' have been doing well from some around here! 😀
MCTuomey
Veteran
From Eastman Kodak's most recent Form 10Q:
"Net sales of Film Capture decreased 32% in the nine months ended September 30, 2010 as compared with the same period of 2009 due to secular declines in the industry."
Kodak is not saying film sales have stopped declining, clearly. The company's published strategy is to focus on its digital segment.
"Net sales of Film Capture decreased 32% in the nine months ended September 30, 2010 as compared with the same period of 2009 due to secular declines in the industry."
Kodak is not saying film sales have stopped declining, clearly. The company's published strategy is to focus on its digital segment.
Mephiloco
Well-known
Schools help a lot with keeping film around. I took a photography class a few years ago as an elective (easy A) and you could only shoot film, some people had digital but it was much harder for them as we were expected to do all our prints in the dark room, and make our own mounts etc, the digital kids automatically got grade deductions for not having done the prints manually.
It was also nice this past week, we were finishing up a movie here with some pretty big talent and my DP is a pretty well known. Due to the 'shadiness' of the producers, we had at any given time 6+ people running around with DSLR's reeling off shots by the hundreds. I brought my Leica and over 4 weeks shot maybe 50 pictures. My DP and my 1st were thrilled to see someone still shooting film, much less a Leica (my DP is German, and really really into vintage optics) and they told me they felt 'honored' to shoot on cellulose (neither had shot a frame of film in a still camera in years).
Anyways, we had thousands of frames shot on set every day from all the dslr's, and the frames every wanted a copy of were the ones I shot on my M5 with my VC21 and my Canon 50 1.2.
It was also nice this past week, we were finishing up a movie here with some pretty big talent and my DP is a pretty well known. Due to the 'shadiness' of the producers, we had at any given time 6+ people running around with DSLR's reeling off shots by the hundreds. I brought my Leica and over 4 weeks shot maybe 50 pictures. My DP and my 1st were thrilled to see someone still shooting film, much less a Leica (my DP is German, and really really into vintage optics) and they told me they felt 'honored' to shoot on cellulose (neither had shot a frame of film in a still camera in years).
Anyways, we had thousands of frames shot on set every day from all the dslr's, and the frames every wanted a copy of were the ones I shot on my M5 with my VC21 and my Canon 50 1.2.
antiquark
Derek Ross
I wonder if Tri-X is declining. I mean, that film has had no reason to exist since the 1970s! 🙂
Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
how dare you!....keep looking behind you, from now on!😀
anitasanger
Well-known
And there is money to be had, that's why the mom and pop shop down the road sold 100 packets of d76 in a week-long period. It doesn't give me warm fuzzies to purchase photographic supplies at a photography store, it's expected. Stores are limiting photographic mediums, taking the choice away from the consumer. And as stated here, consumers are being forced to do their business on the internet.
Digital and film can and will coexist - they are completely different. What is turning people off, are the ignorant store-owners spreading disinformation about film.
anitasanger
Well-known
This is a really neat story.
Mcary
Well-known
Actually Tri-X is one of Kodak's best selling products and is being produced in one of its newest buildings. During a recent interview on Analog Photo radio about the new Portra 400 film the subject of Tri-X came up briefly during which time the Rep said Tri-X sells were very strong and they had no plans to change or update it.
Think people have to remember is B&W film hasn't been large a part of the overall film market since the first mass release of color film. I mean what kind of photo's did your grand parents show you? Probable Kodacrome slides and what did our parents use drugstore processed C41 film. So any change in sell of B&W film products either up or down probable has little or no effect on Kodak over all sell figures.
As far as local establishments, really don't care if they don't want my business there are plenty of places on the internet that do.
Finally Kodak B&W films will be around for a long long time even if its under a smaller spin-off.
