squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
I'm pleased to see that the Panasonic G1 is such a hit, and like a lot of people here, I'm interested in the M4/3 concept as an affordable digital vehicle for legacy, especially M, lenses. I'm particularly pleased that even RFF members seem to be impressed with the EVF.
However, I'm not eager to jump onto this bandwagon because of the crop factor--2 is pretty drastic.
Is there anything preventing other manufacturers from bringing out APS-C cameras without a mirror and prism? Are there technical limitations I'm not thinking of here, or is it merely that they haven't gotten around to it yet? I can't help but think that the apparent success of the G1 will result in a rash of mirrorless APS-C cameras in the coming few years...and if other companies can match the success of the EVF, we might end up seeing the SLR slowly fall into obscurity.
Thoughts?
However, I'm not eager to jump onto this bandwagon because of the crop factor--2 is pretty drastic.
Is there anything preventing other manufacturers from bringing out APS-C cameras without a mirror and prism? Are there technical limitations I'm not thinking of here, or is it merely that they haven't gotten around to it yet? I can't help but think that the apparent success of the G1 will result in a rash of mirrorless APS-C cameras in the coming few years...and if other companies can match the success of the EVF, we might end up seeing the SLR slowly fall into obscurity.
Thoughts?
K
Kin Lau
Guest
Not just aps-c, but also FF. Canon has stated that the sensor in the new 5Dm2 is so low powered, it won't overheat even if you're using Liveview or movie mode for 10-15 mins.
I believe Samsung has announced that they intend to do something similar with aps-c sensors.
I believe Samsung has announced that they intend to do something similar with aps-c sensors.
dazedgonebye
Veteran
Samsung did do a "Yea, we're going to do one of those too." statment...but that's all that they've said.
Anybody that feels like developing a new line of lenses could do this. It's a pretty big financial risk though...and not one I can see Canon or Nikon doing. Heck, they own the world already.
Anybody that feels like developing a new line of lenses could do this. It's a pretty big financial risk though...and not one I can see Canon or Nikon doing. Heck, they own the world already.
mervynyan
Mervyn Yan
I wouldn't say G1 is affordable, but i am intrigued of first M-mount adaptor.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Well, I'm comparing it to the M8...
Fred
Feline Great
The four thirds sensor size is 17.3 x 13 and as such the lenses will be designed with an image circle to match that. The APS-C sensor as used by Nikon (and others) is ~23.6 x 16.7 so it may be interesting to see how a m four thirds lens would work with that.
Size info taken from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SensorSizes.png
Size info taken from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SensorSizes.png
bmattock
Veteran
The APS-C size has been attempted in mirror/prism-less cameras with varying success. The Sony DSC R-1 is still considered a cult classic, demanding a fairly high price even used. No replaceable lens, but a long zoom range.
The Sigma DP-1 cannot be overlooked, as well as the companion upcoming DP-2. The Foveon sensor is close to APS-C size, although some do not care for it, some do.
None of these have been able to overcome the stigma associated with using an EVF for manual focus. People who want high quality and are willing to pay for it in a compact, large-sensor camera, typically want to be able to focus manually, quickly and effectively (my opinion). Until now, no EVF could give the ability to focus manually (again, my opinion), despite the protestations of some who claim to be able to do so.
I still have my doubts about the ability to focus manually with the G1, and I've read more about it - something about a pop-up magnified hocus-pocus aid to manual focus that I doubt I'd care for at all - but I must reserve judgment, it seems, until I've actually tried one, which I hope to do soon (in a store, I can't afford one just to try out the EVF).
However, I do believe that the EVF technology will continue to improve, perhaps by use of OLED technology in place of LCD. I see that as a critical step. If that can reach or surpass the ability of a standard matte split-rangefinder viewscreen in a bog-standard 35mm film SLR to focus manually, then it should not be that difficult to sell the concept - and the SLR as we know it essentially dies. I will see that as a step forward - if we get past the 'I cannot focus this thing' problem.
And if we do that, how hard can it be for Sigma to hack the lens off their DP-1 and put a lens mount on it for the M (or whatever else they fancy)?
The Sigma DP-1 cannot be overlooked, as well as the companion upcoming DP-2. The Foveon sensor is close to APS-C size, although some do not care for it, some do.
None of these have been able to overcome the stigma associated with using an EVF for manual focus. People who want high quality and are willing to pay for it in a compact, large-sensor camera, typically want to be able to focus manually, quickly and effectively (my opinion). Until now, no EVF could give the ability to focus manually (again, my opinion), despite the protestations of some who claim to be able to do so.
I still have my doubts about the ability to focus manually with the G1, and I've read more about it - something about a pop-up magnified hocus-pocus aid to manual focus that I doubt I'd care for at all - but I must reserve judgment, it seems, until I've actually tried one, which I hope to do soon (in a store, I can't afford one just to try out the EVF).
However, I do believe that the EVF technology will continue to improve, perhaps by use of OLED technology in place of LCD. I see that as a critical step. If that can reach or surpass the ability of a standard matte split-rangefinder viewscreen in a bog-standard 35mm film SLR to focus manually, then it should not be that difficult to sell the concept - and the SLR as we know it essentially dies. I will see that as a step forward - if we get past the 'I cannot focus this thing' problem.
And if we do that, how hard can it be for Sigma to hack the lens off their DP-1 and put a lens mount on it for the M (or whatever else they fancy)?
sojournerphoto
Veteran
I tried one in a store and was more impressed tha I expected to be.
The EVF is smaller than my slr's - AE-1, 5D and 1Ds3 - and is a tv like to look at, albeit higher resolution, i.e. bright and cheery blue. Refresh rate seems high enoungh that you don't get noticeable delay - though some reports suggest low light performacne is worse.
The manual focus zooms when you turn the ring and actually does seem to work quite well - it may well be as or more accurate than a standard matte dslr screen and up there with an rf in fact (I have an old pana FZ20 that uses the same idea, but is totally hopeless - this isn't). Think of zoomed liveview focusing on a current dslr, but handheld. The downside is that when it zooms you lose all the frame and then when you press the shutter release it zooms out for framing. It's slightly disconcerting at first glance, but may well be OK as you get used to it. I think that there is a tendency to focus on the focus point when focussing in any case
Shutter lag is low in manual focus mode - it clsoes the shutter and then fires, but your not aware of the two operations. I think it's probably quieter or no noisier than a ZI.
Auto focus is much better than expecetd, albeit not quite as quick as a dslr.
The body is also nice to hold.
Overall, I'm impressed, but will wait until I see what Olympus does before buying one as in body IS might be nice on something that can carry rf lenses - the 50 c-sonnar would make a great 100mm equivalent portrait lens.
I would love to see a full frame version the size of an ikon that could take M-mount lenses without cropping tyhe image, but I am beginning to think that this sort of camera may be the rf/everyday camera of the future - with dslr having a smaller long term market for specific purposes.
Mike
The EVF is smaller than my slr's - AE-1, 5D and 1Ds3 - and is a tv like to look at, albeit higher resolution, i.e. bright and cheery blue. Refresh rate seems high enoungh that you don't get noticeable delay - though some reports suggest low light performacne is worse.
The manual focus zooms when you turn the ring and actually does seem to work quite well - it may well be as or more accurate than a standard matte dslr screen and up there with an rf in fact (I have an old pana FZ20 that uses the same idea, but is totally hopeless - this isn't). Think of zoomed liveview focusing on a current dslr, but handheld. The downside is that when it zooms you lose all the frame and then when you press the shutter release it zooms out for framing. It's slightly disconcerting at first glance, but may well be OK as you get used to it. I think that there is a tendency to focus on the focus point when focussing in any case
Shutter lag is low in manual focus mode - it clsoes the shutter and then fires, but your not aware of the two operations. I think it's probably quieter or no noisier than a ZI.
Auto focus is much better than expecetd, albeit not quite as quick as a dslr.
The body is also nice to hold.
Overall, I'm impressed, but will wait until I see what Olympus does before buying one as in body IS might be nice on something that can carry rf lenses - the 50 c-sonnar would make a great 100mm equivalent portrait lens.
I would love to see a full frame version the size of an ikon that could take M-mount lenses without cropping tyhe image, but I am beginning to think that this sort of camera may be the rf/everyday camera of the future - with dslr having a smaller long term market for specific purposes.
Mike
Dogman
Veteran
Manual focus is rapidly becoming a thing of the past except for pro-level equipment. Look at the manual focus rings on most of the mid-range zoom lenses being used by the vast majority of consumers. Having manual focus available is a second thought. Even some of the AF prime lenses I've seen have such crappy manual focus rings they're virtually unuseable.
I agree EVF technology is improving signficantly. I saw an ad recently in one of the birding magazines that showed a spotting scope that uses an LCD screen. It sounds like complicating a simple process until you consider how awkward it is to use a spotting scope for a lot of people, especially those who wear eyeglasses. It then looks like a brillant solution. And as autofocus technology continues to evolve, we'll see more of that in areas never considered previously. How about binoculars with EVF, AF and IS?
For me, the problem with the G1 using M-mount lenses is simply the lack of effective wideangles and normals with wide apertures. Summiluxes in 35 and 50mm would be 70-100mm in the 4/3 format. A Voigtlander 12mm would give a nice effective 24mm but it's still an f/5.6 lens. I would love to see an APS-C format like this. Full Frame is unlikely to be in my price range.
I agree EVF technology is improving signficantly. I saw an ad recently in one of the birding magazines that showed a spotting scope that uses an LCD screen. It sounds like complicating a simple process until you consider how awkward it is to use a spotting scope for a lot of people, especially those who wear eyeglasses. It then looks like a brillant solution. And as autofocus technology continues to evolve, we'll see more of that in areas never considered previously. How about binoculars with EVF, AF and IS?
For me, the problem with the G1 using M-mount lenses is simply the lack of effective wideangles and normals with wide apertures. Summiluxes in 35 and 50mm would be 70-100mm in the 4/3 format. A Voigtlander 12mm would give a nice effective 24mm but it's still an f/5.6 lens. I would love to see an APS-C format like this. Full Frame is unlikely to be in my price range.
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bmattock
Veteran
I agree with your assessment of the mass market, but those are not the people liable to use a Leica M-mount lens on such a camera. People who would wish to use a lens of that nature must have high-quality manual focus, it practically goes without saying.
It reminds me of the criticism of the Sigma DP-1 by some chuckleheads; "It doesn't have any zoom!" Uh, right, and many sports car lovers prefer a manual shift and are not interested in roof racks or trailer hitches.
I agree it will get to that point, and when it does, it will have significant advantages over optical viewfinders. I'm sure it's soup yet.
For me, the lack of wide-angle is a bit less of an issue, as I seldom shoot wide-angles and tend to prefer equivalent 50mm or longer. However, I agree that it would be a problem for many.
sojournerphoto
Veteran
I think the G1 and 20 prime will be an excellent combination and the oly version with inbody is and hopefully a couple of nice primes around 10, 12.5 and 20 would be spot on.
Of course full frame would be nice, but since shooting the same scene with tmax 400 v2 and a ricoh gx100 (9Mp equivalent) I've sort of concluded that for a lot of things a micor 4/3 or APS-c sensor would eb perfect in a small camera.
Mike
Of course full frame would be nice, but since shooting the same scene with tmax 400 v2 and a ricoh gx100 (9Mp equivalent) I've sort of concluded that for a lot of things a micor 4/3 or APS-c sensor would eb perfect in a small camera.
Mike
mcgrattan
Well-known
Yes, as already mentioned, Samsung have said they intend to do it. I wouldn't mind the lack of an optical viewfinder with mirror if the focus confirmation on the sensor was good.
I often focus manual K-mount lenses on my Samsung dSLR in light where it's really too low to see clearly and where I'd normally need a rangefinder to focus.
I often focus manual K-mount lenses on my Samsung dSLR in light where it's really too low to see clearly and where I'd normally need a rangefinder to focus.
K
Kin Lau
Guest
Manual focus with Live View magnification has very quickly become the standard for macro shooters. Granted we're not talking about street shooting or candids with short DOF, but it's getting there.
bmattock
Veteran
Yes, I could see that for macro, or subjects that are not moving around. I do intend to keep close watch on changes in this area, I find it all fascinating.
bmattock
Veteran
I put a split-screen rangefinder viewscreen in my *ist DS and it has been great. I like the in-focus indication, but it is not always correct.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
In good light, nothing comes close to Foveon. It's just amazingly beautiful. But if they can't refine it to the point where it will give good low light results, it may fade into obscurity...
bmattock
Veteran
Well, Sigma just bought Foveon, so hopefully they intend further development. And I just bought an SD14, so I will be seeing soon how well it works on various conditions.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
At the risk of being OT here, do you happen to know if it's possible to mount Pentax K-mount lenses on the SD14?
bmattock
Veteran
The physical mount is the same, but the SD14 has an IR-blocking piece of glass just behind the mount, so the aperture levers and such that protrude behind the P/K mount would prevent that from happening.
Apparently, some people have modified the lenses permanently, removing the levers, etc - then they work, but will never be proper P/K mount lenses again, and you have to stop down manually.
You can also (and some have) modify a Canon EOS lens with a P/K mount - I am told that the electrical contacts for the SD14 are the same as the Canon EOS, although the mount is very close to an P/K mount.
One gentleman is making (by hand, and apparently quite well) mods to the camera's mounting point itself that allow it to take either Leica-R or Nikon lenses. He is said to be working on Contax C/Y and perhaps Canon FD next, if the demand is there.
I have experimented with my Pentax M42 adapter, and it works, but the lens registration distances are different, so the M42 lenses focus past infinity, and protrude needlessly too far into the camera body, risking hitting the IR blocking glass. There is a different SA-only M42 adapter which establishes the correct distance, I need to buy one of those.
http://www.foto.nordjylland.biz/SD14/SD14-NonSigmaLenses.htm
I really do not want to hack up my P/K lenses, and have no EOS mount lenses. I'd love a Canon FD adapter, but since the lens registration distance is SHORTER on the Canon FD than just about everything else, I suspect it would mean serious surgery on the Sigma body or shaving of the FD mount, neither of which I want to do.
To bring this back on topic....it should be possible to make an FD adapter for the m4/3 mount, at least from a mechanical perspective. I've got an old Canon FL 55mm f/1.2 that I'd love to see mounted on a digital camera (without butchering it).
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
It's not just possible, it's due out soon. The Bartender said so! It is supposed to follow the M adapter.