are folders really that bad?

aizan

aizan

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in regards to lenses not being parallel to the film plane, and the bellows being expensive to replace?

i'm thinking about getting a zeiss ikon super ikonta 532/16 or something similar, but the reputation of folders for being unreliable and delicate is putting me off. can the lens standards and struts be repaired, and are they reliable afterwards? how much does it cost to replace the bellows, and who does it the best?
 
I haven't really had any problems other than pinholes in bellows. I'm sure if one was used up or abused you might have problems with lens standard etc. getting out of whack. But I've only seen this happen a few times.

I would not however use one as my main camera, even if it were in great shape. Most of these are fiddly, cumbersome, cameras.
 
The best $56 I ever spent on a camera was for a 1937 Ikonta 520/16 from KEH. Yes, it was returnable, so a very modest gamble for my first folder. But it was structurally sound, bellows tight, lens clear, nothing stiff. And the images are as fresh as, well, 1937--it has been a complete joy. I do have a modern folder (GF 670) that is just as reliable if the battery is fresh ;-)

If you can't handle an older folder before buying, preferably from a friendly folder expert, buy where you can return/receive credit.
 
If it's in good working condition then you should have no problem, going from my experience. I second Robert's advice to buy from a reputable source who will refund if you're not happy.

If you treat them gently, there's no reason to worry. Some minor bellows light leaks can be fixed with careful application of liquid electrical tape. I haven't attempted a replacement bellows on one of my cheaper folders (a $10 Isolette I) which has a light leak, as it would be cheaper to just buy another.

The Ikontas are very solid cameras. I have a Bessa II which is almost as sturdy and it's a joy to use. Having a coupled RF is very useful.
 
No direct experience with folding Zeiss Ikons, though I'd happily have an Ikonta. But the Voigtländer folders I have handled/owned have all had bellows in excellent condition. Struts can depend on model, some are known to be better than others. Alignment is easy enough to check with a surface plate and dial gauge. Ikonta struts are probably better for the most part, as I understand it, although certain Voigtländers (Eg. their Perkeos) aren't considered to be too bad at all and my experience with one bears this out.
Cheers,
Brett
 
If they're in first class condition and fully working, they can be (and generally are) excellent, but inevitably, ever fewer are in first class condition and fully working.

Also, remember that few were designed for very big enlargements. This doesn't necessarily matter -- after all, 3x is still a good-sized print, and even the worst are normally good for at least 3x -- but it's worth bearing in mind, the more so as front-cell focusing does nothing for image quality.

Cheers,

R.
 
I have had a few with pinholes and tears in the bellows from age. But never had problems with the struts or lensboards being out of position unless the camera had clearly been dropped or mistreated.
 
You could make your own bellows if you have time to kill. Online instructions are available. You could order new MiC bellows and it doesn't cost much.

I went through dozen of folders between 645 and 6x9 formats, 1933 and 1962 made. One pinhole, no problems with film plane. Many of them needed lens and shutter to be cleaned. But it is relatively easy DiY.
 
Folders are as bad as other vintage cameras. They accumulate fast if not watched out carefully :D
 
Over a number of years I'd owned 3 Mockva 5's and an Iskra 1. They were far from delicate in my experience and the Iskra produced the technically best pictures. No enlarged scans showed evidence of "let's call it focuse shift from the top to the bottom" of the image. Having said that, I may very well have been lucky. Because another Iskra,which was the most satisfying camera to actually hold and carry around suffered a shutter malfunction. And you can try the Mockva-5 for a pittance compared to the German cameras ( which I doubt would do better than the coated Mockva lens )

My Rant. Peter
 
I've had quite a few Zeiss Super Ikontas (now down to just a Super Ikonta IV), a Voigtlander Bessa RF, and an Agfa Super Isolette.
The Super Isolette had the best images, due to the unit focusing lens.

The Bessa RF (and its far more expensive successor the Bessa II) are also unit focus. The Bessar RF offers 6 x 9 frame size, as well as 6 x 4.5 cm framing with a mask (which is often lost).

All have required service for sticky shutters.

An easy way to tell if the struts have been damaged is if the RF image is off vertically. You can see this very easily in the Zeiss Super Ikontas with the little flip up rangefinder near the shutter body.

The other cameras with the RF built into the body, you will have to have someone expert check the vertical alignment.

If you want something recent, there is the Fuji 670 folder which was recently discontinued. It has a very sharp modern lens.
 
I've enjoyed a range of folders, starting with the modern Fuji 645, then a bunch of Zeiss Ikon Super Ikontas, then a Balda Baldix 6x6, a Voigtländer 667, and finally a Voigtländer Perkeo II. This last is the only one I have now and my favorite.

Both the Baldix and the Perkeo II needed an overhaul and cleaning, but otherwise no problems with any of them. The Perkeo II has an excellent lens (Color Skopar 80mm f/3.5, coated) and is very solidly made; it's not very fussy or fiddly to use either.

I wouldn't call any of them quick, but that's not something that I'm very sensitive to.

G
 
Like others in this thread, I've had several different folders. The current crop of 120 cameras includes a Certo Super Sport Dolly, a Voigtländer Perkeo II, a Voigtländer Bessa II, and a Zeiss Super Ikonta C 530/2. The first was a basket case when I got it, and the Zeiss wasn't too much better (KEH Ugly), but both are working fine after shutter overhauls and various other repairs and adjustments. The Voigtländers were both in fine shape when they came to me, but still required minor fixes: the Perkeo II's frame counting mechanism was intermittent (just dirty), and the Bessa II needed the shutter serviced. Both Voigtländers also had their front standards out of square with the film plane - they use thinner sheet metal than the Zeiss or the Certo, and even though the cameras were in fine shape, there was clearly some deformation that needed to be addressed.

So are they "that bad"? Well, like any mechanical system, they are the sum of their parts. The folding mechanism adds a degree of complexity, but the design and execution thereof are also important factors. Some are better than others, but they're all old and many have been left unmaintained for decades.
 
The question should read, are they really that good? I've owned lots of folders from 6x4.5 to 6x9. None had any lens alignment issues, none had film plane issues, and all of them made beautiful images. Occasionally you will find models that have poorly made bellows like some of the Agfa Isolettes, but some of the Agfa models had excellent bellows. It's mostly the shiny bellows that are suspect. You have to deal w/ knob wind and, usually, small viewfinders, but it's worth it for their small size and great lenses. A 6x9 camera that you can slip into your back pocket is a good thing! Try that w/ your Fuji 690.
 
I have folders I love.

I've also had ones that were virtually unfixable. One had slightly bent struts and a uneven film plane. Another had been opened without cushioning and the spring had bent metal that moved the rangefinder; the rangefinder stopped at 15 feet. Another had seemingly unfixable problems with the focus not matching the lens (I got it close but could never get it right throughout the range).

Those are just the nearly unfixable ones that should have been considered parts cameras. I sold them as such at a loss each time.

Others had common issues like slow shutters, bellows with pinholes, broken film advance counters,etc. Those are expected and fixable issues with cameras this old.

In the end, folders have more that can go wrong/is more fragile, are older, etc. There are fantastic ones out there but finding them can be more of a challenge than with other camera types.
 
Depends on what you photograph and what convenience you think you need.
I came from 70's SLRs, so I thought I needed focusing aids and in-camera meters. Shot a lot of photos in near and near-middle distances.
But I bought 6x9 Ikontas and Nettars (no RF) for middle far distant subjects and landscapes.
Quickly found I did not need RFs (hyper focal and zone focus did fine) and weaned myself from a meter during daylight hours (sunny 16). Nor did I experience fogging from the red window as some have reported. Get it with a simple shutter and even that should not present a problem. And all very inexpensive.
Start that way and you can decide for yourself.
Good luck and good shooting.
 
Just saw this thread. I think you can see that there can be problems with old folders. Also you can see that they can be really great and fun cameras to use. I'm not sure, but I think I have something like 10 or 12 folders in both 35mm and 120mm. I have 6x6/645, 6x6 only, and 6x9. Most are Welti, but I have a Mamiya Six, a Zeiss (6x9), and a Moskva 5. The Moskva has a lens plane alignment problem. Two Weltinis have a problem, but I knew it when I bought them.

Just me, I like the Welti 6x6s, and the Zeiss 6x9 most in the 120mm range. The Zeiss provides wonderful photos, all out of proportion to what I expected.

Point being, as has been said, get one and try it. Try more than one if you have to.
 
I bought a Zeiss Ercona a few years ago to use as a backup camera on a long road trip. The few rolls that I ran through yielded sharp, contrasty negs - exactly what I wanted. I would use it more often except that it is a bit fiddly to use and rather heavy. If I am going to bring along a brick, in general I am going to bring a heavy weight modern camera, rather than the Ercona. But no complaints at all in terms of the results. We all do tend to forget that our forebears did get some great pictures when these cameras were new.
 
First I would like to know what made you think that they were bad in the first place. I have several Zeiss Super Ikonta's that work beautifully. Very solid build quality. No problems and the Zeiss Tessar lenses are very very good. They are old cameras afterall so sometimes you can run into problems. Buy from someone that will accept a return if not satisfied. - jim
 
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