graywolf
Well-known
Also, if someone does not get great photos, it is obviously the fault of the camera they have. Most cameras, in good repair, are better than most picture takers.
are folders really that bad?
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DanskDynamit
Well-known
get one from Certo6, he's the man.
Pioneer
Veteran
A year or so ago I decided to see what kind of folder I could buy for less than $25 US dollars. Between Ebay, Etsy and a few other sites I ended up with about 35 cameras.
One had aperture blades that didn't work. I think it was taken apart by a zealous but unskilled repair person because the blades were there, just hanging out of sorts.
Two had serious focus problems, usually a glued solid helical.
Six of them had leaky bellows that could not be repaired without replacement. One of those six had half the bellows missing altogether. 🙂
Fifteen had pinholes in their bellows that could be repaired.
Six had shutters that just didn't work at all.
Eight shutters were slow in one or all speeds. All but two of these smoothed out with exercise. None returned to shutter speeds as marked.
The number one problem affecting performance was dirty lenses.
Two camera worked perfectly with little or no adjustment needed. One was obviously used heavily during its life but was the smoothest of the bunch.
There were a couple that I cannot find roll film for any longer and one actually uses sheet film, not roll film.
But, out of all those $25 folders, only one was so bent up that it just could not be put back to use. 🙂
One had aperture blades that didn't work. I think it was taken apart by a zealous but unskilled repair person because the blades were there, just hanging out of sorts.
Two had serious focus problems, usually a glued solid helical.
Six of them had leaky bellows that could not be repaired without replacement. One of those six had half the bellows missing altogether. 🙂
Fifteen had pinholes in their bellows that could be repaired.
Six had shutters that just didn't work at all.
Eight shutters were slow in one or all speeds. All but two of these smoothed out with exercise. None returned to shutter speeds as marked.
The number one problem affecting performance was dirty lenses.
Two camera worked perfectly with little or no adjustment needed. One was obviously used heavily during its life but was the smoothest of the bunch.
There were a couple that I cannot find roll film for any longer and one actually uses sheet film, not roll film.
But, out of all those $25 folders, only one was so bent up that it just could not be put back to use. 🙂
steveyork
Well-known
The pre-war Zeiss MF really do make special B&W images. We just put a test roll through an Ikoflex with undated 3 element Triotar, and I was impressed.
mich rassena
Well-known
I have a number of old folders, and pinholes in the bellows are definitely a problem with some brands. An old Agfa I had was rendered useless by pinholes, but my Zeiss folders and Kodaks look great with few exceptions. So most likely it depends on the material, keeping conditions and age. I've found the folders I've used to be adequate at producing small enlargements 2x or 3x, but I mostly shoot 6x9. The cameras themselves I've used are the more basic models, triplet lenses without rangefinders or unit focusing. With an accessory rangefinder and f16, I can get consistently good but not great results.
The main appeal of folders are the amount of film real estate you can get in a small package (6x4.5 folders are tiny). Even with a basic folder, medium format offers a richness that's hard to replicate on 35mm.
The main appeal of folders are the amount of film real estate you can get in a small package (6x4.5 folders are tiny). Even with a basic folder, medium format offers a richness that's hard to replicate on 35mm.
oldwino
Well-known
My Mamiya-Six is every bit the equal to my Rolleiflex. I can't believe how good that old Olympus lens is, and the camera can fit into a jacked pocket very easily. I love my Rolleiflex, but I take the Mamiya-Six with me when traveling.
charjohncarter
Veteran
I have 4: 2 Isolettes II, 1 Balda Hapo 66e, and a Japanese folder called First Six Camera. The Isolettes are the most bullet proof, the Balda has a good lens, but some mechanical functions that make me nervous, the First Six is junk but the lens is so bad I love the effect that no one else can get. I few years ago it was about $136 for a new bellows.
They are the perfect travel if you want to take a 6x6 along.
They are the perfect travel if you want to take a 6x6 along.
BillBingham2
Registered User
Some folks seem to forget that at one time most cameras were folders! Some were the go-to camera for years for new paper photographers.
Good to hear our thoughts on the Mamiya-Six. I've been debating about jumping into a MF carry camera. I really like the wideness of the GS645 (built in meter is handy too) but love the feel and look of older metal folders.
B2 (;->
Good to hear our thoughts on the Mamiya-Six. I've been debating about jumping into a MF carry camera. I really like the wideness of the GS645 (built in meter is handy too) but love the feel and look of older metal folders.
B2 (;->
Steve M.
Veteran
I've owned somewhere between 50-100 medium format folders in my life from 6 x 4.5 to 6 x 9, along w/ a slew of 35mm folders like Baldinettes and Retinas. Never once did I run into any lens alignment or film plane issues. I'm sure that happens if you abuse one or drop it while open, but if used properly it should never happen.
Bellows problems are specific to certain cameras. Voigtlanders usually are fine, as are the Zeiss folders. Agfa or Ansco folders will almost always have bad bellows if they're the shiny bellows, while the dull black bellows are usually fine.
All delivered wonderful images. The standouts were a small 1937 Zeiss 6 X 4.5 w/ an uncoated Tessar, and the Voigtlander cameras w/ Heliar lenses, which gave me wonderful enlargements that were sharp and 3-D like. There is absolutely no reason why a good folder cannot deliver large enlargements that are just as good as non folders.
Bellows problems are specific to certain cameras. Voigtlanders usually are fine, as are the Zeiss folders. Agfa or Ansco folders will almost always have bad bellows if they're the shiny bellows, while the dull black bellows are usually fine.
All delivered wonderful images. The standouts were a small 1937 Zeiss 6 X 4.5 w/ an uncoated Tessar, and the Voigtlander cameras w/ Heliar lenses, which gave me wonderful enlargements that were sharp and 3-D like. There is absolutely no reason why a good folder cannot deliver large enlargements that are just as good as non folders.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
The 532/16 and likewise models are the least likely to suffer from any issues that generally are attributed to folder cameras. They are built tough as brick outhouses.
I have a pre-war Super Ikonta B with the uncoated Tessar lens and it doesn't look like it ever went in for service but it is a great camera and works like a charm.
Once I found a cheap Bessa II with the prized Heliar lens but when I sold it I had to take it back, the new owner claimed the struts were slightly bent and the lens never did deliver its superb image quality. It was fine when I had it... Sold it for parts in the end, yikes!
benlees
Well-known
I have a serious hankering for a folder! Definitely want 6x45; Fuji if I can get one cheap. Wouldn't mind a Konica Pearl for a vintage one.
citizen99
Well-known
He had probably folded it without pressing the release tab 😡.
ThreeToedSlothLuke
Established
Some time ago I picked up a cheap Zeiss Nettar 516/2 and tried to clean the lens. In short I made a mess of it and eventually sent it to Jurgen (Certo6) for a proper CLA. He did say he didn't like to fix other people's problems but...
I don't recall the exact amount -- probably 125-200 range -- but it works nicely.
Hatfield House, Hertford, UK. April 2015
oftheherd
Veteran
As it turns out, one of the Fuji Six models also does 645. Masks are another problem. You need to know a good machinist, then it isn't so hard to make. I was lucky that mine came with the mask, as did one of my Welta 6x6/645 models.
tennjed
Newbie
I have fallen pretty fast and deep into the 120 folder world. So far, all of them have been good performers, with only one functioning so poorly that it cannot be used. None have had bad bellows. In my experience, they are a good buy.
The best of the bunch has been a Zeiss Super Ikonta III. For about $150.00, I have discovered it to be a great performer; as far as convenience of use, it is second to none of my other medium format cameras: where the Hasselblad and Rolliechord are truly great cameras, neither can be folded up and carried in my coat pocket.
The best of the bunch has been a Zeiss Super Ikonta III. For about $150.00, I have discovered it to be a great performer; as far as convenience of use, it is second to none of my other medium format cameras: where the Hasselblad and Rolliechord are truly great cameras, neither can be folded up and carried in my coat pocket.
charjohncarter
Veteran
I thought I'd put this up; taken by my Balda Hapo 66e.
TriX HC-110h by John Carter, on Flickr
I find it sharp enough for more than 8x10.
TriX HC-110h by John Carter, on FlickrI find it sharp enough for more than 8x10.
Moto-Uno
Moto-Uno
^ There you go again John , posting those quite amazing examples from just about any camera you get in your hands , call me jealous ! Peter
charjohncarter
Veteran
Ha Ha! I do like that camera though. Thanks.
Pentode
Well-known
Even my budget folder; a Seagull 203, has been surprisingly trouble-free. And that's not even a very well made camera.
I have/have had a number of folders both in MF and 35mm and I've had no parallel alignment problems and only the occasional pinhole. They make great coat pocket cameras and produce great images (mine do, at least).
If you buy from a reputable dealer a Moskva or Iskra can be a good entree into folders and those cameras are built like tanks. Some have really good lenses, too.
I have/have had a number of folders both in MF and 35mm and I've had no parallel alignment problems and only the occasional pinhole. They make great coat pocket cameras and produce great images (mine do, at least).
If you buy from a reputable dealer a Moskva or Iskra can be a good entree into folders and those cameras are built like tanks. Some have really good lenses, too.
DownUnder
Vamoosed (for a while)
Some folders are good, others are not. I would say go for one, with a few cautions. My love affair with them goes back 20+ years, and my experiences may serve you well if you decide to go the folder way.
Over that period of two decades I've owned about 10 645 and 6x6 Zeiss Nettars. Most were so-so and needed repairs. Ebay purchases were expensive and, on the whole, disappointing. Beware (= avoid) sellers who preface their listings with "I don't know anything about..." as in my experience they are trying to flog off a clunker they bought cheaply and want a profit. Bellows and struts were the biggest problems, then wonky shutter speeds. As well, peeling black body paint is a common complaint with Zeiss folders.
I also owned an Agfa folder and a couple of made in Germany Agfa lookalikes. The Agfa was the only one of the lot with holes in the bellows.
A 1939 Zeiss 645 I acquired from a secondhand shop in Melbourne cost me $35 but I then threw away $80 for a complete CLA. The shutter speeds never did work right. I returned it to the repair shop and it came back sort of fixed but with a snarky note from the repair person reminding me I was dealing with a 70+ year old camera.
Most of my Zeiss cameras are now in collections,which says something.
One Melbourne camera shop in Melbourne (now not longer dealing in film cameras, alas) had a consignment lot of one 6x6 Nettar and a 6x9 Nettar, both at premium prices($50 and $80). I bought them and still have them. The 6x6 was superseded by a Voigtlander Perkeo I (more about this camera later) and is now largely a shelf queen. The 6x9 is in perfect condition,produces superb color images, and gets used two or three times a year.
Two years ago a private seller told me he had a Perkeo I for sale. It has the synchro-compur shutter with speeds 1 through 1/500 and the wonderful Color Skopar lens. I checked it out and decided to take the plunge. Paid $95 for it. This has been the very best folder I've ever bought, is almost as new (amazing, for a 1952 camera) and produces 6x6 engravings with astounding sharpness and definition. Small accessories for the Perkeo aren't plentiful but occasionally I find one I want. A lens hood in a leather case cost me $18.50 (Ebay), a yellow-green push on filter $10, and I've just this week bought two skylight push ons, a Voigtlander range finder and a push on viewfinder for $80 the lot. An old Zeiss leather case fits the camera perfectly. Other than an exposure meter (which I already own), I can't think of any other accessories I will need in future. Try this with a Rollei TLR!
My Perkeo negatives enlarge to 16x20 without flaws. I'm not a big user of slide films, so I cannot advise you about this, others will probably know.
My advice to you is yes, do buy a folder if you want a truly unique camera/film experience, but be cautious. Avoid Ebay auctions. Buy privately even if you pay more. Handle the camera and give it the flashlight test for bellows pinholes. Put it thru all its shutter speeds.
The Perkeo II is a more modern version and I will happily buy one if I find it in future. Remember it has double exposure prevention and film number locking, which may cause tech problems in future. There is also a third, more advanced model, but I've never seen one, and if I did I would likely pass on it unless it was being literally given away. (Google for more info.)
Folders take you back to a minimalist style of photography and with a little effort, you can get some superb images.
If you end up with a klunker, well, you can sell it on Ebay...
Whatever your decision, and whichever model of folder you buy, please enjoy.
Over that period of two decades I've owned about 10 645 and 6x6 Zeiss Nettars. Most were so-so and needed repairs. Ebay purchases were expensive and, on the whole, disappointing. Beware (= avoid) sellers who preface their listings with "I don't know anything about..." as in my experience they are trying to flog off a clunker they bought cheaply and want a profit. Bellows and struts were the biggest problems, then wonky shutter speeds. As well, peeling black body paint is a common complaint with Zeiss folders.
I also owned an Agfa folder and a couple of made in Germany Agfa lookalikes. The Agfa was the only one of the lot with holes in the bellows.
A 1939 Zeiss 645 I acquired from a secondhand shop in Melbourne cost me $35 but I then threw away $80 for a complete CLA. The shutter speeds never did work right. I returned it to the repair shop and it came back sort of fixed but with a snarky note from the repair person reminding me I was dealing with a 70+ year old camera.
Most of my Zeiss cameras are now in collections,which says something.
One Melbourne camera shop in Melbourne (now not longer dealing in film cameras, alas) had a consignment lot of one 6x6 Nettar and a 6x9 Nettar, both at premium prices($50 and $80). I bought them and still have them. The 6x6 was superseded by a Voigtlander Perkeo I (more about this camera later) and is now largely a shelf queen. The 6x9 is in perfect condition,produces superb color images, and gets used two or three times a year.
Two years ago a private seller told me he had a Perkeo I for sale. It has the synchro-compur shutter with speeds 1 through 1/500 and the wonderful Color Skopar lens. I checked it out and decided to take the plunge. Paid $95 for it. This has been the very best folder I've ever bought, is almost as new (amazing, for a 1952 camera) and produces 6x6 engravings with astounding sharpness and definition. Small accessories for the Perkeo aren't plentiful but occasionally I find one I want. A lens hood in a leather case cost me $18.50 (Ebay), a yellow-green push on filter $10, and I've just this week bought two skylight push ons, a Voigtlander range finder and a push on viewfinder for $80 the lot. An old Zeiss leather case fits the camera perfectly. Other than an exposure meter (which I already own), I can't think of any other accessories I will need in future. Try this with a Rollei TLR!
My Perkeo negatives enlarge to 16x20 without flaws. I'm not a big user of slide films, so I cannot advise you about this, others will probably know.
My advice to you is yes, do buy a folder if you want a truly unique camera/film experience, but be cautious. Avoid Ebay auctions. Buy privately even if you pay more. Handle the camera and give it the flashlight test for bellows pinholes. Put it thru all its shutter speeds.
The Perkeo II is a more modern version and I will happily buy one if I find it in future. Remember it has double exposure prevention and film number locking, which may cause tech problems in future. There is also a third, more advanced model, but I've never seen one, and if I did I would likely pass on it unless it was being literally given away. (Google for more info.)
Folders take you back to a minimalist style of photography and with a little effort, you can get some superb images.
If you end up with a klunker, well, you can sell it on Ebay...
Whatever your decision, and whichever model of folder you buy, please enjoy.
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