Are you anxious about the demise of film?

[Roger Hicks]

Triacetate, CTA and TAC, are used extensively and in huge quantity in the production of textile fibres, it's hard to imagine the basic stock becoming scarce

Sure. But as I understand it, there's rather less demand for great big rolls of large thin sheets of the stuff, of optical quality.

I could be wrong. I may have misunderstood. But the film coaters I have talked to have often mentioned this as the likeliest potential bottleneck. As I say, much like paper base. Since Felix Schoeller took over Glory Mills and knocked them on the head, there's no other choice among European makers of traditional photo paper bases. This is one great advantage of Ilford's new non-baryta paper, produced in association with Hannemuehle. The other is that for my money, the new paper is the finest made in the last few decades.

Cheers,

R.

 

[rogerzilla]

Colour is likely to be the problem because the film is harder to make and it really needs commercial processing for consistency and quality. I've sort of resigned myself to shooting b/w for a few years until I can afford a digital Leica. Digital does colour better than most films anyway, becayse colour film grain isn't nornally attractive, the exception being the ridiculously large grain of the old Konica SRG3200. I'd still shoot b/w on film out of choice though, because (a) digital b/w is not the same and (b) I'm not sure I could shoot with an inherently colour capture medium and still work at the composition in the way I would with a roll of b/w-only film in the camera.

 

[randomm]

35mm? Or indeed, in any format, of usable quality for enlargement? I'll be impressed...

EDIT: And what did he use for a substrate?

Cheers,

R.

Hi Roger,

I'm pretty sure the man himself would be able to answer any of your questions. I managed to dig out the thread of him making the film. He hasn't got an anti-halation layer on it though but otherwise it looks like pretty good stuff. Unfortunately the thread is in Finnish and I'm not sure how much sense google translate is going to make of it. Nevertheless you can access the link with him test images behind it...

http://www.kameralaukku.com/portal/index.php/topic,45202.msg344198.html

... Hs latest announced project was a diy 16mm cinema film scanner ...

Some people seemingly just can.

Jani

 

[Roger Hicks]

Hi Roger,

I'm pretty sure the man himself would be able to answer any of your questions. I managed to dig out the thread of him making the film. He hasn't got an anti-halation layer on it though but otherwise it looks like pretty good stuff. Unfortunately the thread is in Finnish and I'm not sure how much sense google translate is going to make of it. Nevertheless you can access the link with him test images behind it...

http://www.kameralaukku.com/portal/index.php/topic,45202.msg344198.html

... Hs latest announced project was a diy 16mm cinema film scanner ...

Some people seemingly just can.

Jani

Dear Jani,

Thanks very much for the link, but Finno-Ungric languages are not my strong point.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Sparrow]

Sure. But as I understand it, there's rather less demand for great big rolls of large thin sheets of the stuff, of optical quality.

I could be wrong. I may have misunderstood. But the film coaters I have talked to have often mentioned this as the likeliest potential bottleneck. As I say, much like paper base. Since Felix Schoeller took over Glory Mills and knocked them on the head, there's no other choice among European makers of traditional photo paper bases. This is one great advantage of Ilford's new non-baryta paper, produced in association with Hannemuehle. The other is that for my money, the new paper is the finest made in the last few decades.

Cheers,

R.

I was meaning the raw-material availability, the chip itself

From what I've seen of the processing machines when I did a tour of a Neckermann plant in Holland, as a customer, I was told that in fact that one was very adaptable, yarn to coke bottles in that case. Quantity could be an issue, the minimum they could run was 20 tonne and 200 was preferable, I have no knowledge of film itself

 

[Roger Hicks]

I was meaning the raw-material availability, the chip itself

From what I've seen of the processing machines when I did a tour of a Neckermann plant in Holland, as a customer, I was told that in fact that one was very adaptable, yarn to coke bottles in that case. Quantity could be an issue, the minimum they could run was 20 tonne and 200 was preferable, I have no knowledge of film itself

Dear Stewart,

No argument. But consider the sort of machine that is required to make wide sheets of the stuff to the quality required for film base. It's big, and if demand is insufficient for such films, there may be no financial incentive to manufacture it.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Sparrow]

Dear Stewart,

No argument. But consider the sort of machine that is required to make wide sheets of the stuff to the quality required for film base. It's big, and if demand is insufficient for such films, there may be no financial incentive to manufacture it.

Cheers,

R.

For 20 years I ran, with two other directors, a 24 loom textile mill that produced around 500 kilometres of fabric each year all of which was made into neckties ... we are one of four mills in the UK alone, that's around 2000 km per year

I think niche markets are often underestimated, that or there are many neckties in landfill

 

[Roger Hicks]

For 20 years I ran, with two other directors, a 24 loom textile mill that produced around 500 kilometres of fabric each year all of which was made into neckties ... we are one of four mills in the UK alone, that's around 2000 km per year

I think niche markets are often underestimated, that or there are many neckties in landfill

Dear Stewart,

Once again, I do not argue with a word you say, and indeed, this is why I have said in this very thread that I think film we be around for a long time yet. On the other hand, we were looking at what are, in effect, doomsday scenarios: at what, if anything, might kill film.

There are essentially two possibilities: lack of demand for film itself, and non-availability (for whatever reason) of an essential ingredient. Film base has been mentioned to me by film makers as the one they're most worried about.

The statistics on neckties are indeed fascinating.There may be a modest demand for them in the bondage market, but it is hard to imagine where they all go. I wonder what happened to all mine.

Cheers,

R.

 

[sevo]

Acetate sheet has had a comeback in the packing industry, as it is being made from renewable resources. Whether that will also keep optical grade production afloat is another question. It certainly can be made in small quantities, too - it doubtlessly has been in the past. But whether anybody will pay film prices similar to the ones asked in the early days of photography remains to be seen...

Optical grade polyester sheet won't stop to be around, as it is a core material of the display industry.

But whatever future base we'll use, unless producers continue to cater for the special needs of 35mm film (i.e. a grey dyed base to prevent light piping) we will face a time when we'll need a changing bag along with 35mm cameras. Medium format (having paper leaders) and large format (needing dark loading in any case) would not be affected by a switch to a crystal clear base.

 

[Sparrow]

Dear Stewart,

Once again, I do not argue with a word you say, and indeed, this is why I have said in this very thread that I think film we be around for a long time yet. On the other hand, we were looking at what are, in effect, doomsday scenarios: at what, if anything, might kill film.

There are essentially two possibilities: lack of demand for film itself, and non-availability (for whatever reason) of an essential ingredient. Film base has been mentioned to me by film makers as the one they're most worried about.

The statistics on neckties are indeed fascinating.There may be a modest demand for them in the bondage market, but it is hard to imagine where they all go. I wonder what happened to all mine.

Cheers,

R.

It has always amazed me just how big the market is, when one considers domestic production is only 1/5 of the total UK sales ... film must be enormous by comparison

 

[wgerrard]

Maybe its just my impression of the film market but things seem better now than four years ago. Ilford continue to produce a wide range of products, Efke, Rollei and a small band of smaller producers are keeping us supplied with new and different films. As I said maybe its just my impression. Phil.

We do have a lot of choices, Phil. Whether that translates into good financial news for the film producers is something else. If we're going to able to buy film well into the future, I think it's going to be from one or a very few small producers. Probably internet distribution only. Selection would be very small and prices high. That assumes there's a happy spot where small production runs, a small market, and high prices can turn a profit. For example, if you can sell X rolls in a month, but can't effectively do a production run smaller than twice X, then you might shut down altogether.

The end game, at least for 35mm, is well in motion.

 

[sevo]

We do have a lot of choices, Phil. Whether that translates into good financial news for the film producers is something else. If we're going to able to buy film well into the future, I think it's going to be from one or a very few small producers.

Well, even assuming that the number of film users shrinks to a million (there probably will be far more for quite some time given the continuing high volume turnover and high price of Nikon, Leica, Hasselblad etc. film bodies on ebay), and that they are low-profile users using an average of a mere ten rolls per year each, that would already be ten million rolls of film annually - rather more than the output of one "very small" producer. I'd estimate the continuing demand to be at least a magnitude or two above that.

 

[shadowfox]

Well, even assuming that the number of film users shrinks to a million (there probably will be far more for quite some time given the continuing high volume turnover and high price of Nikon, Leica, Hasselblad etc. film bodies on ebay), and that they are low-profile users using an average of a mere ten rolls per year each, that would already be ten million rolls of film annually - rather more than the output of one "very small" producer. I'd estimate the continuing demand to be at least a magnitude or two above that.

Reasonable projection.
I consider myself as a "laid-back" film user, averaging 1 roll per week for the past 5 years or so.

I imagine there has to be more than one million of average usage comparable to mine globally. In which case, the number actually is closer to 52 million rolls consumption per year.

How many rolls does (let's say) Ilford output per year?

 

[wgerrard]

Sevo, do we know there are a million film users? I don't have any reason to doubt yor assertion, but other than sales figures how would we know? Used camera sales and trades seem iffy because we have no way of knowing what happens to them.

Is a million users enough to keep a company in the black? I don't know.


I'm not attacking film. I don't see anything happening to reverse the current trend toward its commercial demise. Maybe it will stay around as a boutique product, but that is unpredictable.

 

[séamuis]

Sevo, do we know there are a million film users? I don't have any reason to doubt yor assertion, but other than sales figures how would we know? Used camera sales and trades seem iffy because we have no way of knowing what happens to them.

Is a million users enough to keep a company in the black? I don't know.


I'm not attacking film. I don't see anything happening to reverse the current trend toward its commercial demise. Maybe it will stay around as a boutique product, but that is unpredictable.

it would be very difficult to get any sort of real accurate count on the number of global film users, because not all markets can be easily counted. many less developed countries, where the high entry cost of digital keeps film in the forefront are also a big factor that cant be ignored. we often look only at highly developed western nations or the high developed far east as the main film customers, but the reach of film is far beyond that. although digital is quickly penetrating, film is still a very common sight in the philippines for example. India also has a high level of film use.

 

[sevo]

Sevo, do we know there are a million film users?.

Well, in the heydays of universal disposables availability, there used to be around half a million film users here in town. A million would already be left over if only one in 500 EU inhabitants uses film. As far as sales figures go, the biggest photo department store here in town was still shifting a few hundred films a week a month ago when I asked - not much given that their film aisles were cluttered with torn packing material in the peak years, when they were selling faster than they could unpack cleanly, but still far more than could be accounted for by the projected 100 users in town needed to make up a global million.

 

[one90guy]

Film

Film

My only worry is polaroid film, I can no longer find the 100 b/w. Yes there is still color and 3000 b/w but the 100 was my favorite. As for 35mm and 120mm I not worried, in fact I just found Fomapan about 3 months ago. But maybe everyone needs to sell there cameras quick😀

 

[Nikon Bob]

It seems that the entire production capacity is not being utilized at Harmon which makes all of Ilford's films. http://www.harmantechnology.com/DotNetNuke/Capabilities/Coating/tabid/75/Default.aspx . Even after downsizing there is still production capacity in excess of what is needed to fill Ilford's present film needs. If and when film production runs get shorter cost will rise and so will retail pricing. If a facility, for whatever reason, loses the other products needed to fill in the gaps in film production needs the plant may close.

Bob

 

[hatidua]

Fuji announcing the GF670W camera makes me think they did a bit of research on this topic before investing in the R&D involved with that project.

 

[wgerrard]

Fuji announcing the GF670W camera makes me think they did a bit of research on this topic before investing in the R&D involved with that project.

Companies usually have a some finite number of years in mind during which they expect a new product to cover its costs and then make money.Fuji might, for example, expect a new film camera to pay for itself in 3 years. If they thought film would disappear in 5 years, they still might release it.

Film will be around as long as businesses think they can make more money by spending money on film production than they can by spending it elsewhere, or not spending it at all. That's simplistic, but true.