Paul T.
Veteran
When did the "vast majority of people in the USA" define what art was? They would like Athena posters & cutesy photos of kids or flowers.
AS for "you can screech all you want" - why is there such a bug up your ass about it? I wonder why contemporary artists challenge you so much?
AS for "you can screech all you want" - why is there such a bug up your ass about it? I wonder why contemporary artists challenge you so much?
Sparrow
Veteran
I just remembered the Athena poster of that tennis player scratching her arse ...
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Wasn't aware that real art had any time constraints..Constable's time is past ? then so is Monet,Picasso,Sisley and all the rest.
One thing is for sure that a huge majority would prefer a Monet in their home than a Mablethorpe and for obvious reasons. I say majority but there will be a few who might like the opposite and there always will be.
Such is Life.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
I talk about art in the USA because I'm an American and its my country. A country whose culture is dying. In the past art that was regarded as good art by the art world was accessible to most people. It did what art has always done, it documented their culture, history, religion, politics, food, dress, architecture, etc. Art was something anyone could appreciate without suspending disbelief, as one must do about much of what's produced now. Artists didn't starve before the late 19th century, they were respected craftsmen who earned decent livings. Artist starve today simply because no one wants what they produce; it has no cultural relevance to 99% of the people in society, and unfortunately that makes people believe that NO art worth looking at is produced. That in turn makes artists turn even further from their cultural origins, and alienates their fellow man still further.
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Sorry forgot ..artists ..as a photographer Steve McCurry from Magnum.
kevin m
Veteran
I would imagine this sort of contempt for the common man is just the sort of thing Chris is getting at. And he's right, BTW. The visual arts today are too often the same people who move in the same circles, evidently satisfied with their own cleverness, and not connected to life outside those circles in any relevant way.
We're not animals. We have to figure out our place in this world and art is certainly one way we do that. Pity that the art world seems content to play a much sadder and smaller role.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Thanks Kevin, that is exactly what I am saying.
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I just remembered the Athena poster of that tennis player scratching her arse ...
Damn Right,
butt, sorry couldn't resist the pun, not to everybodys sexual preference it would seem
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Precisely .
kevin m
Veteran
It's a depressing state of affairs. The artists need the "hoi polloi" and vice-versa, but it's the artists who know better, and it's they who need to make the first move.
Andy Kibber
Well-known
I don't share your experience, Kevin and Chris.
I live in a small North American city. Over the past few years a couple of successful visual and performance arts festivals have gotten underway here. Lots of folks out taking in sculpture, installations, printed matter, painting, etc. Not just the usual suspects either.
C'mon up for a visit if you care to!
I live in a small North American city. Over the past few years a couple of successful visual and performance arts festivals have gotten underway here. Lots of folks out taking in sculpture, installations, printed matter, painting, etc. Not just the usual suspects either.
C'mon up for a visit if you care to!
kevin m
Veteran
Where are you located, Andy? Why be coy?
We have a small art community where I live, too, and I visit NYC a few times a year, but I don't see that art penetrates the world of most Americans these days.
Andy Kibber
Well-known
Where are you located, Andy? Why be coy?
I like to maintain an air of mystery! Actually, if anyone cared to (and I can't imagine why they would) they could figure out where I live in a about 30 seconds by looking through my Flickr stream.
'Twas always thus and always thus will be!
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ruben
Guest
I have been folllowing this thread so full of passion, high temperatures, and even the forgotten plumber from the past US elections was brought back, alongside some drops of healthy humor by FrankS.
But all these for what exactly ?
It reminded me by contrast analogy about another thread, many may remeber, of a RFF member that went either to China or Mongolia and displayed beautifull images done with a Yashica Electro.
At that thread the spirits ran quite positive, sorry, highly positive, we all showing our admiration, and I think it was our fine member Barret, who signs as Amateriat, the one who expressed a sarcastic and humouristic Barret-like sigh, wondering about all the money he spent on gear...
The difference between then and now is not about the old vs the new times. It was that then, at that thread no one spoke about "Art", who is an Artist, money, and all those entrenched frustrations so much intercalated in our life.
However upon seeing those beautifull images from the far Orient we all felt inspired, full of joy, and admiration because indeed, despite or because they were made with a $50 camera, they were so appealing.
I will not enter now the trap of the false contraposition of "Art vs gear", nor what is Art and who deserves that medal, not even about the stinking paradox of selling Art.
The absence of the "Art" word at that Electro thread was rather related to the fact that they were not displayed as "Art". Although I cannot avoid skipping the fact that after seeing the work of some friends that at this heated thread went to dress themselves with the Artists' uniform - well ... better I shout my mouth. Who knows.
But what in my opinion does deserve all the passion displayed in this ongoing thread, are the basic human questions between us amateurs, photography-lovers, and Photography.
Just yesterday I saw on TV a recent movie with William Defoe called "Anamorphosis". The film is cruelly shocking about a serial murder and Defoe, the police investigator. After seeing it for second time, I was deeply impressed by the acting, and specially the facial expressions of Defoe who is quite aging, and seems to perform now better than ever.
This phenomena of artists of every sort becoming better and better the more they age, is not exclusive to William Defoe in the field of cinema. We see it at other popular fields like for example with Leonard Cohen, who in contrast to Defoe is broadly reckognized as top singer.
But I choose here to take William Defoe case, precisely because within the cinema industry, to my perception, he seems to be held at much lower value, than the performance he gives at that film testifyies for. Of course he has his relative good status, but to my opinion much lower than the one he deserves.
So many folks around may think of him accordingly as a "looser" - a concept that keeps me thinking about all the time for it embracing 99% of the human race.
I will say it bluntly as usual. What worries me most, or rather interests me most about my photography, is how I will be able to flourish by it along aging. Aging and flourishing.
I do not need to be paid for that, nor even get more reckognition than a few true flickr fans, since I do not belong anymore to that world. I can instead try to be happy with less, without labels and even happy if the lack of labels indeed represent my small piece of talent. Being humble will only add originality and depht to my small talent. I wish myself this will power in a true life & death fight against the worst within man.
And apropo flickr I would like to give a true example. One of my contacts there is an Argentinian young girl, who shoots with a little Powershot the world around her, her boyfriend, her other friends, her life around. Many of her pictures are technically disastrous. But she has a strong sense of originality, which overpowers the poor showing. Simple life, great originality - isn't it an achievement ?
All this greediness, frustration, pushing each one, etc so well displayed at this thread, so much distilled, it is my worst enemy for aging and flourishing. It is the poison fountain I wish to ripp of myself from as much as possible. Be it clear I am not above it, I don't belong to an upper strata of thinkers, or whatever. But it is a counscious fight to manage with a clear cut enemy within myself.
To get rid of all this poison. To cultivate my good human sides, to harvest the best feelings - it is only this way I will ever be able to age and flourish at the same time, and input it all in my pictures.
Cheers,
Ruben
But all these for what exactly ?
It reminded me by contrast analogy about another thread, many may remeber, of a RFF member that went either to China or Mongolia and displayed beautifull images done with a Yashica Electro.
At that thread the spirits ran quite positive, sorry, highly positive, we all showing our admiration, and I think it was our fine member Barret, who signs as Amateriat, the one who expressed a sarcastic and humouristic Barret-like sigh, wondering about all the money he spent on gear...
The difference between then and now is not about the old vs the new times. It was that then, at that thread no one spoke about "Art", who is an Artist, money, and all those entrenched frustrations so much intercalated in our life.
However upon seeing those beautifull images from the far Orient we all felt inspired, full of joy, and admiration because indeed, despite or because they were made with a $50 camera, they were so appealing.
I will not enter now the trap of the false contraposition of "Art vs gear", nor what is Art and who deserves that medal, not even about the stinking paradox of selling Art.
The absence of the "Art" word at that Electro thread was rather related to the fact that they were not displayed as "Art". Although I cannot avoid skipping the fact that after seeing the work of some friends that at this heated thread went to dress themselves with the Artists' uniform - well ... better I shout my mouth. Who knows.
But what in my opinion does deserve all the passion displayed in this ongoing thread, are the basic human questions between us amateurs, photography-lovers, and Photography.
Just yesterday I saw on TV a recent movie with William Defoe called "Anamorphosis". The film is cruelly shocking about a serial murder and Defoe, the police investigator. After seeing it for second time, I was deeply impressed by the acting, and specially the facial expressions of Defoe who is quite aging, and seems to perform now better than ever.
This phenomena of artists of every sort becoming better and better the more they age, is not exclusive to William Defoe in the field of cinema. We see it at other popular fields like for example with Leonard Cohen, who in contrast to Defoe is broadly reckognized as top singer.
But I choose here to take William Defoe case, precisely because within the cinema industry, to my perception, he seems to be held at much lower value, than the performance he gives at that film testifyies for. Of course he has his relative good status, but to my opinion much lower than the one he deserves.
So many folks around may think of him accordingly as a "looser" - a concept that keeps me thinking about all the time for it embracing 99% of the human race.
I will say it bluntly as usual. What worries me most, or rather interests me most about my photography, is how I will be able to flourish by it along aging. Aging and flourishing.
I do not need to be paid for that, nor even get more reckognition than a few true flickr fans, since I do not belong anymore to that world. I can instead try to be happy with less, without labels and even happy if the lack of labels indeed represent my small piece of talent. Being humble will only add originality and depht to my small talent. I wish myself this will power in a true life & death fight against the worst within man.
And apropo flickr I would like to give a true example. One of my contacts there is an Argentinian young girl, who shoots with a little Powershot the world around her, her boyfriend, her other friends, her life around. Many of her pictures are technically disastrous. But she has a strong sense of originality, which overpowers the poor showing. Simple life, great originality - isn't it an achievement ?
All this greediness, frustration, pushing each one, etc so well displayed at this thread, so much distilled, it is my worst enemy for aging and flourishing. It is the poison fountain I wish to ripp of myself from as much as possible. Be it clear I am not above it, I don't belong to an upper strata of thinkers, or whatever. But it is a counscious fight to manage with a clear cut enemy within myself.
To get rid of all this poison. To cultivate my good human sides, to harvest the best feelings - it is only this way I will ever be able to age and flourish at the same time, and input it all in my pictures.
Cheers,
Ruben
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Awhile ago I accompanied a Pakistani Surgeon.who works in our NHS and an English Nursing officer (female) into Kashmir to take food and medicines to one of the refugee camps in the mountains and to tend to the injured, mostly children.
It was pretty 'hairy' stuff. 3000 metres up a single track in a 'put together' from other trucks,no suspension ,bald tyres, no brakes and very dodgy steering and we were shot at, 29 rounds on the way up and 17 on the way down. (I'm 'former military') it was a natural reaction to count the incoming. Anyway we made it up to the village and the medics started to do their thing. I was 'kicking my heels' a bit having shot most of what I needed when I saw a little face peering around a goat shed.
I waved and smiled and the face grinned and then dissapeared. 5 miutes later there were 2 faces and then ten and shortly 20. We slowly came together and before I realised it all the uninjured kids were around me and we played and I chased them growling like a lion and they laughed and screemed and giggled with pure innocent joy which echoed through the valleys. It seemed a very short time to me but I was told later it was a couple of hours.
It began to get dark so very reluctantly we began the trip back down the mountain track accompanied by 3 of the village elders yakking away to the surgeon and driver and laughing and pointing at me.
After a few klicks the Pakistani surgeon turned to me and told me that the village chief had said to him that when I was playing with the kids it was the first time he had heard any laughter and joyfull screams from them since they arrived at the camp 8 months ago.
What could I say...my stomach turned my heart pounded and my eyes filled with tears. One of the villagers slapped me gently on my shoulder.
I would not exchange those moments for a Pullizer prize every year for the rest of my life.
Peter.
Sparrow
Veteran
That’s a lovely story, I always think that noise children make when at play is something that will have remained unchanged throughout our history
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Sparrow
Veteran
That’s something I’ve thought about for years, it seems to me there has been a schism in the art of the 20c. Prior to the last quarter of the 19c art had been a progressive thing, each generation building on it’s predecessors work, and all pretty much accessible to the general public. The art-elite did embed details and messages within works, but the work was still understandable even if one didn’t get the "in joke."
Then the ism’s came along, when the revolution of impressionism did so well each generation had to have their own ism to rebel with, each more bizarre than the last until it was impenetrable to all but the high priests of the art establishment (and I think they fake it half the time)
outfitter
Well-known
I was referring to the right to authenticate works of art by the artist or estate; both have a right to destroy fakes and deceptive copies.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Ah, I see. I was indeed misunderstanding you. Sorry. Thanks for the clarification.
Cheers,
R.
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