galavanter
Established
Hello everyone,
This is my first post here. I have enjoyed learning about the R-D1 and M8 here. I may purchase one of them. I posted in a thread on the Leica user forum, all the while thinking I was here. I've been bouncing around quite a bit and I now see both forums use the same software, and have some of the same members too.
Like many, I too was disappointed in Leicas relegation of ISO and EV comp to the menus, and have been following some of the possible solutions offered.
I did not come across any suggestion of AUTO ISO however, so I offer this thread. Forgive me if I cut and paste some of my comments from the other forum:
As you may well know, every new Nikon from the D50 to D2X has AUTO ISO. It's great!
Nikon obviously realizes that in digital, ISO IS the third variable in exposure just like Sean is saying. You simply set in the menu the MIN shutter speed you will permit the camera to use and the MAX ISO you will allow it to use. The camera does the rest, keeping the lowest ISO until it reaches your MIN shutter, then it bumps it up. I keep my D70 set to a minimum shutter of 1/60 (depending on movement) and max 1600 ISO. I use it in aperture priority mode, which the M8 has!
This fellow Peter Marshall explains it very well here. Check out his title:
Auto ISO-The New Paradigm
http://photography.about.com/b/a/257637.htm
I'm getting in over my head here, I know the lenses are manual, but doesn't this all work off the meter reading? The M8 already adjusts the shutter speed electronically in aperture mode, why not the ISO too? Within the users preset parameters of course. You don't have to worry about ISO anymore! But of course, like all the Nikons, you can turn it off if you want.
Like someone else said above, from the street to low light. This seems tailor made for the digital rangefinder. I wasn't even aware my D70 had auto iso until I read about it on Ken Rockwell's site.
ISO is every bit as important as shutter speed and aperture since it is variable in a digital camera. Auto ISO is no different nor any more heretical than AUTO shutter speed, which the film M7 and digital M8 have in aperture priority.
Anyway that's my input and for my 5 grand that is what I would VERY MUCH like Leica to do. Can it be done? Couldn't a firmware upgrade do it?
What do you folks think?
This is my first post here. I have enjoyed learning about the R-D1 and M8 here. I may purchase one of them. I posted in a thread on the Leica user forum, all the while thinking I was here. I've been bouncing around quite a bit and I now see both forums use the same software, and have some of the same members too.
Like many, I too was disappointed in Leicas relegation of ISO and EV comp to the menus, and have been following some of the possible solutions offered.
I did not come across any suggestion of AUTO ISO however, so I offer this thread. Forgive me if I cut and paste some of my comments from the other forum:
As you may well know, every new Nikon from the D50 to D2X has AUTO ISO. It's great!
Nikon obviously realizes that in digital, ISO IS the third variable in exposure just like Sean is saying. You simply set in the menu the MIN shutter speed you will permit the camera to use and the MAX ISO you will allow it to use. The camera does the rest, keeping the lowest ISO until it reaches your MIN shutter, then it bumps it up. I keep my D70 set to a minimum shutter of 1/60 (depending on movement) and max 1600 ISO. I use it in aperture priority mode, which the M8 has!
This fellow Peter Marshall explains it very well here. Check out his title:
Auto ISO-The New Paradigm
http://photography.about.com/b/a/257637.htm
I'm getting in over my head here, I know the lenses are manual, but doesn't this all work off the meter reading? The M8 already adjusts the shutter speed electronically in aperture mode, why not the ISO too? Within the users preset parameters of course. You don't have to worry about ISO anymore! But of course, like all the Nikons, you can turn it off if you want.
Like someone else said above, from the street to low light. This seems tailor made for the digital rangefinder. I wasn't even aware my D70 had auto iso until I read about it on Ken Rockwell's site.
ISO is every bit as important as shutter speed and aperture since it is variable in a digital camera. Auto ISO is no different nor any more heretical than AUTO shutter speed, which the film M7 and digital M8 have in aperture priority.
Anyway that's my input and for my 5 grand that is what I would VERY MUCH like Leica to do. Can it be done? Couldn't a firmware upgrade do it?
What do you folks think?
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rvaubel
Well-known
galavanter said:
Auto ISO sucks. The reason is that when the camera is choosing TWO variables at once, the photographer starts to lose control of the process. One of the essential elements of the M system is the direct control that the camera affords the person behind the lens. In this group, auto-exposure was contraversal enough!
Simplicity rules
Rex
ampguy
Veteran
better left off
better left off
I think, just set it at 100 or 200 in daylight and test how high you can go for low light for the size/grain/noise that's acceptable or likeable for you.
For the kids cameras, I take them off the auto ISO and set to 200. Next step will be to take them off auto WB, then off auto exposure.
A knob would be nice, but might have made the thing bigger.
better left off
I think, just set it at 100 or 200 in daylight and test how high you can go for low light for the size/grain/noise that's acceptable or likeable for you.
For the kids cameras, I take them off the auto ISO and set to 200. Next step will be to take them off auto WB, then off auto exposure.
A knob would be nice, but might have made the thing bigger.
ampguy
Veteran
Rex
Rex
IMHO, it doesn't "suck" if you know what you're doing. If you want to use a given shutter speed and aperture, and just a specific range of ISO chosen by the camera, shooting in varying light, this is possible and proven. Leica have not previously done this, but Japanese camera companies have successfully done this, and it works.
For ex., I have a DSLR that lets you adjust the ISO range. I can also go full manual on everything, as manual as any M camera, and not "lose control of the process"
It's self-control that needs to be utilized with an auto everything that still gives you manual controls.
Rex
IMHO, it doesn't "suck" if you know what you're doing. If you want to use a given shutter speed and aperture, and just a specific range of ISO chosen by the camera, shooting in varying light, this is possible and proven. Leica have not previously done this, but Japanese camera companies have successfully done this, and it works.
For ex., I have a DSLR that lets you adjust the ISO range. I can also go full manual on everything, as manual as any M camera, and not "lose control of the process"
It's self-control that needs to be utilized with an auto everything that still gives you manual controls.
rvaubel said:
rvaubel
Well-known
ampguy said:
The problem (f there is one) is that 99% of the people using auto ISO have no idea of exactly what it is doing. I have a DSLR with all the bells and whistles, including auto ISO, and I spent at least 8 hrs trying to figure out what the camera's thought process was when I turned the feature on. I finally figured out what was going on but could still never predict when it was going to "do its thing"t. Thats what I mean by losing control.
Anyway, the M series is supposed to inbody the concept of direct control and simplicity. Some of the bells and whistles that I would embrace on a DSLR are inappropriate on the M8
I leave my pulpit
Rex
ampguy
Veteran
Ok
Ok
Rex,
I see your point. I meant to say my DSLR has auto range settings, so I can limit the # of stops I want to let the auto ISO ride, if I wanted to use it all.
I agree that it can be a confusing thing. I don't think the camera providers give out their detailed programmed AE info. charts like they did in the '70s.
Ok
Rex,
I see your point. I meant to say my DSLR has auto range settings, so I can limit the # of stops I want to let the auto ISO ride, if I wanted to use it all.
I agree that it can be a confusing thing. I don't think the camera providers give out their detailed programmed AE info. charts like they did in the '70s.
rvaubel said:
photogdave
Shops local
Welcome to the forum!
One aspect of the M8 that Leica is promoting is low noise at higher ISO due to the lack of anti-aliasing filter. If this holds true then I would feel comfortable shooting at one of the higher ISOs to get the shutter speed I need. I agree that a variable or auto ISO mode could lead to loss of overall control.
One aspect of the M8 that Leica is promoting is low noise at higher ISO due to the lack of anti-aliasing filter. If this holds true then I would feel comfortable shooting at one of the higher ISOs to get the shutter speed I need. I agree that a variable or auto ISO mode could lead to loss of overall control.
Leicaiste
Member
photogdave said:
I don't think the lack of anti-aliasing filter helps low noise. It only increase sharpness.
The noise on the DMR at higher ISO is not that good, and it shares the lack of anti-aliasing filter.
BTW, I tried the ISO command on the M8 and IMO it's not that bad.
Push on SET twice, scroll between 160, 320, 640, 1250 and 2500 and push on SET again.
Lucien
ampguy
Veteran
I can't wait to
I can't wait to
see how the 1250 does.
I have a good idea on why they chose the funky ISO #'s...
I can't wait to
see how the 1250 does.
I have a good idea on why they chose the funky ISO #'s...
Leicaiste said:
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
As far as I (can) understand ( but don't take me for an expert) is that Leica reduced the noise relative to the DMR by increasing the voltage on the sensor. Indeed it has nothing to do with the filtering. I don't think auto-ISO is a feature that would enhance the M8, as the concept is to have as much user control as possible. Most RF users turned their backs on electronic (D)SLR's as they did not like the little goblins inside the machine doing the deciding for them.
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galavanter
Established
Auto ISO is a Leprechaun
Auto ISO is a Leprechaun
not a goblin.
Like Ampguy says, it's proven and it works. Simple as that. This is not auto focus, which as we all know is far from perfect, especially in low light. This is not matrix metering, which just might decide to over or underexpose your shot.
Again, this is just like "auto shutter speed", which even the film based M7 has.
"Photographer losing control! Photographer losing control!"
Pure speciousness.
I do like simplicity, but having to go into a lighted menu to change ISO, missing the shot (now that sucks) I'm changing it for, when I could stay relatively unnoticed and get the shot, does not simple define.
My interest in photography is people, and looking at them through a rangefinder window instead of a mirror is appealing to me. Having a small quality camera that does not call attention to itself (or me) is important to me. It's hard enough to go unnoticed or get people to forget about you so you can take candid shots. Performing adjustments, especially ones that require you turn on a light, cause unwanted attention, and help remind everyone that there is a camera and photographer present.
Remember when journalists used to use Leicas? They could again. Being able to run from the street to inside a dimly lit building and capture a photo by just focusing and pressing the shutter release would be invaluable. So 21st century I know.
To me this is an easy fix to a serious problem. It would harm nothing but the sensibilities of the Leica purists. Besides, it would be just one more item in the menu for them to ignore. There are many more items inside that newfangled digital M8 that run counter to the '50's Leica mystique. Maybe Leica should have called this camera the X1 instead.
You may have gathered that I have never owned a Leica, nor any other rangefinder before. I do not come here with any of the “good ol' days” musings. Like many I began photography on a manual camera shooting film. I got away from it for years but digital brought me back. I don't want a simple first class film camera converted to digital, I want a simple first class digital camera. If I purchase one it will be because of its image quality and its ability to get the image, not to become part of a nostalgic group insisting that no change is good.
I am reminded of a commercial I saw years ago. A young woman is showing off her new computer to her father when he says something smug like, "Ernest Hemingway didn't use a computer to write "For Whom the Bells Toll". She simply looks at him and says, "He would now".
Thanks for the welcome photogdave.
Auto ISO is a Leprechaun
not a goblin.
Like Ampguy says, it's proven and it works. Simple as that. This is not auto focus, which as we all know is far from perfect, especially in low light. This is not matrix metering, which just might decide to over or underexpose your shot.
Again, this is just like "auto shutter speed", which even the film based M7 has.
"Photographer losing control! Photographer losing control!"
Pure speciousness.
I do like simplicity, but having to go into a lighted menu to change ISO, missing the shot (now that sucks) I'm changing it for, when I could stay relatively unnoticed and get the shot, does not simple define.
My interest in photography is people, and looking at them through a rangefinder window instead of a mirror is appealing to me. Having a small quality camera that does not call attention to itself (or me) is important to me. It's hard enough to go unnoticed or get people to forget about you so you can take candid shots. Performing adjustments, especially ones that require you turn on a light, cause unwanted attention, and help remind everyone that there is a camera and photographer present.
Remember when journalists used to use Leicas? They could again. Being able to run from the street to inside a dimly lit building and capture a photo by just focusing and pressing the shutter release would be invaluable. So 21st century I know.
To me this is an easy fix to a serious problem. It would harm nothing but the sensibilities of the Leica purists. Besides, it would be just one more item in the menu for them to ignore. There are many more items inside that newfangled digital M8 that run counter to the '50's Leica mystique. Maybe Leica should have called this camera the X1 instead.
You may have gathered that I have never owned a Leica, nor any other rangefinder before. I do not come here with any of the “good ol' days” musings. Like many I began photography on a manual camera shooting film. I got away from it for years but digital brought me back. I don't want a simple first class film camera converted to digital, I want a simple first class digital camera. If I purchase one it will be because of its image quality and its ability to get the image, not to become part of a nostalgic group insisting that no change is good.
I am reminded of a commercial I saw years ago. A young woman is showing off her new computer to her father when he says something smug like, "Ernest Hemingway didn't use a computer to write "For Whom the Bells Toll". She simply looks at him and says, "He would now".
Thanks for the welcome photogdave.
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summilux
Well-known
it is one of those cool feature in Nikon that I enjoy, i don't think you will 'lose control' in any sense.
Jon Graham
Established
Welcome to the forum Galavanter!. After some thought, I tend to agree with you. I hsve used M's and digital for years. Personally I dislike auto iso; but I would rather have auto iso as a choice on the M8 if there cannot be a direct iso control on the body.
The 2 push nonsense with the set button is going to frustrate lots of users - including me. Until they change the software for the menu access, I will probably not get the M8. If Leica assures me there will be downloadable software/firmware updates addressing this issue, then I will get one.
The 2 push nonsense with the set button is going to frustrate lots of users - including me. Until they change the software for the menu access, I will probably not get the M8. If Leica assures me there will be downloadable software/firmware updates addressing this issue, then I will get one.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
galavanter said:
First of all- I did not notice you pristine post number -Welcome
Secondly -whoa, don't get to excited!
- I think you missed the meaning of my post. Of course it could be a useful feature in some shooting conditions, but at Leica they pride themselves at building te M series to a certain "philosophy" You can think what you want about that or even call it stupid conservatism, but it has brought them a legendary reputation and has sold camera's for nigh on eighty years. I am sure that auto-iso was considered in Solms and deemed "not to fit in the Leica concept", the same way they never integrated autofocus in the R system, although that can be a very useful feature indeed in sports or bird photography for instance. But Leica user are a bit funny sometimes. There has to be an all-manual camera besides the M7, or there would be an outcry There were a number that thought Leica was going Japanese when the M6 was introduced, they refused to buy the M5, which nearly broke the company... I would not be surprised to see a full-manual M8P at some point of time, maybe with a B&W sensor...Personally I agree with Jon Graham, I would not like it and probably never use it, but as long as it can be switched off, who cares? My Digilux2 seems to have a video mode,which is utterly useless imo but I would not even know how to switch it on.
Anyway, the the discussion is wholly moot as auto-iso is not on the M8 and I doubt that will be a deal-breaker for many people, but who knows in the future? It is a software thing so maybe with some firmware update....
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DaveSee
shallow depth of field
Hmmm... very interesting post and quandry too... so what's the difference between "Auto Aperture" and "Auto ISO"?galavanter said:
Might I ask if the Nikon "auto ISO" requires particular lenses used? Specifically, the M8 may use (e)specially encoded lenses to let the camera firmware "know" what lens is in use. This is important because a 50/2 treats light differently than a 50/1.4 at a given aperture... And here's the point: the firmware should account for this if making calculations on "film/sensor speed" when recording the light data.
However, Leica has (wisely) chosen not to *require* the firmware to know what lens is in use because it is programmed to accept a fixed amount of light data regardless of the lens. From reports thus far, the encoding is used for the JPEG formatting, and EXIF lens ID only.[1]
This above may make little sense, but for this: if the M8 firmware could know what lens is in use, and the present/preset aperture, then "Auto ISO" is possible... but, just to know that it''s a 50/2 or 50/1.4 is not enough information for the JPEG post-processing... that pesky Depth of Field and an efficient algorithm to *know* what data to *discard* in the optimization...
...think hyperfocal(my ally) and that each lens has specific characteristics for apertaure, FV, sharpness and shutter speed.
Yes, receptor "ISO", aperture and shutter speed all contribute to the image capture, but ISO as fixed permits a certain simplicity in the firmware--and size of the firmware computer--when the lens and aperture are varied in scope... if the "speed" of image processing(aka "ISO", and modified by the EV +/-) is constant, then a lot of computation is avoided, simplifying/ speeding up in-camera processing.
My take on this, fwiw, rgds,
Dave
[1] These are reports from folks who have used coded and non-coded lenses.
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
I think Leica's position is: " A Gentleman does not switch ISO, a Gentleman buys a Noctilux"
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ampguy
Veteran
good point dave
good point dave
The M9 or M10 should have it figured out.
good point dave
The M9 or M10 should have it figured out.
DaveSee said:
galavanter
Established
Oh my no! Your post was fine! Goblin made me smile! I had written my entire post but before submitting it I checked to see if there were any new responses and when I read yours I added my leprechaun title. Only the title was directed at you. Sorry for that.jaapv said:First of all- I did not notice you pristine post number -Welcome
Secondly -whoa, don't get to excited!
Right off I'm confused by your first question. Auto aperture?DaveSee said:
I know auto iso works with all Nikon's auto focus lenses. Manual lenses I don't know about. My D70 can't meter with manual lenses. The D200 can. (This is why I mentioned getting in over my head in my original post).
But I think auto iso should work in the M8 without the camera knowing the aperture of the lense, because the meter reads the light and I'm figuring the auto iso works off the meter reading, just like auto shutter speed (as I have been calling aperture priority for the sake of comparison). Shouldn't it? (This is also why I posed this as a question in my original post). Maybe I am embarrassing myself here...
You are saying auto ISO can't work unless the camera knows the lense aperture? Until today I figured that was impossible in the M8 until I saw another post by the goblin above!
I am aware of the lense coding and microlenses with software correction but I don't see how that relates to auto iso, other than this unique approach to vignetting by Leica might conflict if auto iso was used too. Is that what you are saying?
Lastly, I would hope that if my 2 year old $1,000 D70 can do all these things (processor wise) the just announced $5,000 Leica could handle them too. But then again you do make me realize that auto iso is easier said (by me) than done (by Leica).
I'll be looking forward to your response. If it isn't possible, well so be it. Anyway, I've been wondering if the M8 couldn't incorporate an MP3 player inside, for those too quiet times when not taking photos. Maybe use some built in flash memory, just German marching songs mind you...
What do you folks think?
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Don't be sorry. Actually, as you may have noticed that I am no friend of the automation that infests the major DSLR's, I had written something else than "goblin" but changed that as I did not want to risk offending my Asian buddies here. I decided there were fewer Irish to be offended!
DaveSee
shallow depth of field
...well there you are, and off I went (again) spouting off on "Auto Aperture" when I was thinking "Auto Exposure"... huh, "aperture priority" = "auto exposure" = "variable shutter speed based on light meter reading"galavanter said:
...so, that might clear things up a bit! I was suggesting that the lens characteristics are very different at the same focal length and aperture with respect to the amount of *in focus", or focussed light on the sensor. To do "Auto Anything" you must have a constant(or two), or be as fast a processor as we humans are capable... so to do Auto ISO, I would expect known EV +/- and Aperture set on the lens. So, if the Nikon/Canon,etc cameras can take in a scene and choose both the shutter speed, "receptor speed(ISO)", and only adjust for EV correction without knowing what the lens is, nor its present aperture, then you have quite a camera...
Although not quite worth 4,000 USD, youre Nikon D70 "can't meter with manual lenses"... much less mount and make useful some very remarkable glass
rgds,
Dave