B & H Lawsuit....

I met up with Akiva for lunch at Thai Treat a month or two ago. If it wasn't for him I would never have known that there's a Kosher Indian and Thai restaurant maybe 20 blocks away from my house! I've been back there with my son too. He's a lot less secular than I am.
 
I was photographing a rabbi a few years ago and is my pattern, chatted him up beyond "Hi how are you, etc etc.' So we get talking about sabbath (started by me talking about friends who converted so they could marry) and other things and in the course of our conversation, he suggested that it's entirely observant to travel in a bus after sundown for example...as long as it was running when you got on. Same with lights, if they were on when Sabbath began, all was ok.

I grew up alongside one day a year (their self description) and orthodox Jews but never really understood the difference till I got older and curious and wondered why one friend always had to leave early on Fridays.
 
George S. said:
So Bill, I assume you applied to work at Hooters? :D
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Well, the law apparently does allow that exception.:)

Still, a quick Google shows a Texas Hooters is being sued by a person of male persuasion claiming gender discrimination. Southwest Airlines used to have a policy of hiring only female flight attendants but no longer. What the court and the law considers appropriate does change.
 
Finding the balance between culture, religion and civil laws is hard but critical. I was a young kid from Upstate NY who spent just over nine wonderful years working in NYC and learning from many different cultures what life was about. I often wonder what happened to Ester or Isaac. The company I first worked for treated equally badly. If you could not come in on Saturday to do some extra hours you were expected on Sunday. If you needed to go home early on Friday you had to stay later (read more than just late) during the week. Those without any good excuses were invited to come in both Saturday and Sunday. They had their good points, they would pay for lunch if you worked through it, a cab home if you had to stay late enough. When I compare them to a BIG company I worked for more recently they were actually pretty nice. That company promoted people into management who berated employes. If you gave 120% for longer than a week, that was now your normal level of work, anything less was unacceptable. Managers had to yell or they were demoted or let go. No religious background there, but a lot of old frat boys driving a lot of good people into the ground.

I hope B&H can find the balance. They are good people who really mean no harm. They probably just can't see a way to find the middle ground. They need guidance from a learned teacher who knows both worlds and can help them find the point were both sides can coexist.

B2 (;->

(a 50 year old man with two Jewish sons and a Jewish wife that he loves)
 
newsgrunt said:
...as long as it was running when you got on. Same with lights, if they were on when Sabbath began, all was ok....
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I have friends with two kitchens in their house, two sets of plates, forks and knives. I'm not sure about leaving lights on but I know some do leave burners on on the stove. Keep in mind, just like with Christians, there are lots of differences out there in the Jewish religion. My read is that it's the same with Muslims too.

Differences are wonderful but we need to remember how much all of us have in common. That should be what binds us.

B2 (;->
 
BillBingham2 said:
I have friends with two kitchens in their house, two sets of plates, forks and knives. I'm not sure about leaving lights on but I know some do leave burners on on the stove. Keep in mind, just like with Christians, there are lots of differences out there in the Jewish religion. My read is that it's the same with Muslims too.

Differences are wonderful but we need to remember how much all of us have in common. That should be what binds us.

B2 (;->
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Why the two kitchens and sets of dinnerware?
 
robklurfield said:
Joe, I hope you don't close the thread. However, everyone needs to be a little more thoughtful, respectful and slower to react. Consider your words before you hit the Post Reply button. Words are like toothpaste: they're very hard to get back into the tube.

On the topic of B&H, anything is possible. I am a non-practicing, non-observant, non-believing Jew who once worked for a company comprised of staff and ownership all of whom were Orthodox (well, there was at least one guy who was faking the Orthodox part to fit in better, but he was Jewish); most everyone was Hasidic. I know that no harm was intended by the two things that I'll tell you about them, but it doesn't make what they did correct. They acted out of strong beliefs and not a little bit of stubborn ignorance (I liked the people I worked for, but that doesn't make everything they did correct or agreeable; they meant well, but they were still wrong).

First, the owner of the company (who happens to be a friend and neighbor of B&H's owner) said to me on a Friday at 11:00am in the summertime, "we're all leaving now, but you can stay until 6:00pm to close up." When I reminded him that I too am Jewish, he said, "no, not like us, you're not." I pointed out the silliness of his statement in detail (from a religious and a legal perspective). The summertime season made this especially ridiculous given that Jewish law says the observant Jew needs to be not working, traveling, etc. by sundown on the Sabbath (even their meals for the Sabbath need to be prepared in advance of sundown). Even my few co-workers who traveled to the country for Sabbath had commutes of less than two hours. So, I politely pointed out that if we all left at 1:00pm everyone could get a little more work done and still be home in plenty of time to meet our family, religious and other obligations. My boss didn't get this and I lost the argument.

Another time, when trying to justify giving everyone in the company except for me two weeks of paid days off for a single holiday, he said, "you know we all celebrate in different ways;" his way of telling me, "we'll be celebrating while you are working." Fortunately, in that second instance, our CFO talked the CEO out of this and I got the same deal as everyone else.

Several years after I left, the company had grown so much that it moved to new, bigger location, taking over an large, old building. In renovating their enormous new space, they created a segregated work area for unmarried Jewish young women staff so they would not have to spend their work days in the presence of men. Those women perform a job function that no men in the company do. Is this discriminatory? Their workforce probably doesn't think so, as the staff continues to comprise almost entirely Orthodox Jewish people who agree with the policy. Would someone from outside their culture and religion be bothered by this? Some people certainly would be and might even take legal action.

Bottom line here, groups are made up of people. Individual people and sometimes the groups with which they identify themselves (whether the identity is "Jewish retailer" or "Irish Catholic NY Yankees fan" or "Hindu cricket player") have foibles, quirks, biases, prejudices, etc. Sometimes we humans behave foolishly or unfairly. Could this have happened at B&H? Sure, why not? The company IS run by humans. Could the plaintiff be filing a frivolous lawsuit? Maybe. Is it possible that B&H discriminated? Sure. Does that make them bad people? No, just ignorant and wrong on this topic. Sometimes, when you gather a group of people together who have a strong common identity, they behave worse than they would when acting as individuals because that group identity drives group-think (ie, "this is a good group, therefore anyone not a part of it is somehow suspect"). Would a Boston Red Sox fan discriminate against a New York Yankees fan? Of course it could happen -- well, it happens all the time. Religious and cultural beliefs can certainly inflame as much passion and sometimes as much bad behavior as baseball fandom.

BTW, I liked these folks I worked for and with enough that I considered an offer to return to their employ once when they pursued me to come back.

I have shopped at B&H and will probably shop there again.

In management meetings at my old company, the conversation would occasionally drift from English to almost entirely Yiddish, especially if the topic became heated. I would sometimes have to remind my colleagues that my knowledge of Yiddish consists of about 30 or 40 words never used in complete sentences. This became hilarious when once we were hosting an IT vendor's team for a meeting in our conference room. None of the vendor participants were Jewish and yet half my colleagues suddenly burst into Yiddish and needed to be reminded repeatedly to treat our guests with better manners. Many of my colleagues in that company were young and had spent their entire lives sheltered in their own rather insulated communities with little exposure to the rest of the world of NYC. Some of these folks, nearly all of them men, have grown up quite a bit and experienced a broader world and know better now how to behave amongst a diverse population.
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Great story Rob - very well said.
 
Chriscrawfordphoto said:
If they keep kosher, why do they need two of everything? As long s they keep non-kosher foods out of their kitchen, one should be enough. Right?
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Not if you are ultimately and humorlessly serious about preventing cross-contamination.

(Though I still find it a little silly, because it neglects the common element--the hands that handle the instruments.)
 
Chriscrawfordphoto said:
If they keep kosher, why do they need two of everything? As long s they keep non-kosher foods out of their kitchen, one should be enough. Right?
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Again, it depends upon the level they follow the law at. Some say just wash the dishes, others say meat and dairy can not touch the same plate or be on the table at the same time.

Even here in Oz North (North Shore of Chicago) ten years back we were invited to a party and I asked for mayonnaise to put on a burger. The wife won a bet with her husband that they should have but it out. They did not eat it at the same time, but they would serve it. One kid in an old troop my sons were in never ate anything but cheese pizza when we stopped for meals between home and camp. It was on the same table that was just his families level and why they fit in.

The Dairy Planet and Deli Glatt were but two of many places that keep strict kosher to serve a large audience in NYC.

It's something that I really like about the Jewish faith, tolerance. They do not fully accept, but they are tolerant of each other.

B2 (;->
 
Dear Bill,

Hang on. Isn't mayonnaise pareve? It is the way I make it: olive oil, egg, garlic, mustard powder, sometimes a dash of vinegar.

EDIT: On the sabbath I ask such a question...

Cheers,

R.
 
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BillBingham2 said:
Differences are wonderful but we need to remember how much all of us have in common. That should be what binds us.
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+1 This pretty well sums it up for me.

My wife used to take care of an elderly lady in Golders Green, very Orthodox household . Her sons were rabbis who would bring texts to Russia which I understand was a difficult task.
 
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There is nothing Jewish about obeying or disobeying employment regulations. Companies owned by Jewish owners and companies owned by non-Jewish owners obey and disobey fair employment regulations on a daily basis, often in relative obscurity and thus with impunity.

Likewise there is nothing Jewish about offering a religious freedom defense when accused of disobeying fair employment practices. You will find businesses across this country who hire employees who share the religious affiliation of the business' owners and would argue that they are within their rights to do so.

If B&H is guilty of unfair hiring practices, they won't be guilty because the business is owned by Jewish owners or employs Jewish people. The company will be penalized only if the court determines that they have disobeyed the regulations governing employment.

The line between fairness and discrimination is not distinct but rather is fluid and subject to discussion & negotiation. That's why we have the courts in this country. They adjudicate the issues for which there is no clear or immediate answer without competing claims.

Lack of familiarity with an easily identified group of people is no excuse for conflating their primary identifying characteristic with their behavior.

If you would like to know more about Judaism, I am sure that there are branches of the Chabad and Lubovitch groups in your community who would be very happy to help you.
 
Might be slightly off topic, but I just finished reading End of Faith, Sam Harris and recommend it as very worthwhile reading.

(Note: I don't advocate it or any other point of view, only the value in hearing it).

Cheers
Steven
 
nextreme said:
Might be slightly off topic, but I just finished reading End of Faith, Sam Harris and recommend it as very worthwhile reading.

(Note: I don't advocate it or any other point of view, only the value in hearing it).

Cheers
Steven
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Dear Steven,

That and Dawkins's 'The God Delusion'.

Addendum: I don't know if this story qualifies as pro- or anti-Semitic, but I quite like it.

The first time I was ever in New York, and after I had been to a few of the better-known camera stores, I was talking to one of the guys at Wall Street Camera.

"Are all the camera stores in New York Orthodox Jewish?" I asked.

He paused and considered for a moment. "Nah. Only the good ones..."

Cheers,

R.
 
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jke said:
You will find businesses across this country who hire employees who share the religious affiliation of the business' owners and would argue that they are within their rights to do so.
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No doubt. But, if a rejected job applicant can satisfy a court that his application was rejected because he didn't share that religious affiliation, odds are very strong he will win his suit. As, I think, he should.
 
The 2 kitchens is commonly for the Passover holiday. To ensure that leavened bread never touched the equipment
it brings up the question of how you can be observant if you lack the means or lived 1000 years ago. The real answer is that there are customs and rules which can be followed and you don't need a second kitchen. It's just a convenience or perhaps a bit of orthodox oneupsmanship

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread
 
gb hill said:
Glad you got that off your chest & you feel better now. The only reason I brought it up was because everyone knows B&H is owned by orthodox jews & the comments could become quite sensitive. I've found folks here can't read through a post & know someone is joking around. Sorry if you or anyone else missed my point. Thats the problem with forums & why I don't take anyone serious here. Too many of you need a life! Get out more & shoot some film or something. Sorry I brought it up & your so offended:rolleyes: Geezzz!! BTW Akiva is a friend on flickr & I guarentee none of you have as many positive comments on his photo's as I have.
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Did I say anything about YOU? I said "somebody from NC... are you the only one there? I've called several people from NC 'Goobers'. :D

BTW, most people have the good sense to not repeat something said in the past that they know people take sensitively.

Yes, it is difficult to tell when some people are joking when what they say is written. Speaking for myself... I understood your point. It was a warning of a specific thing that should not be said because it upsets some people. But had it not been said (again), maybe the thread would have had a different focus.

I'll be shooting 4x5 today, but probably not using a rangefinder. Somewhere in the Talmudic law I'm sure there is a rule forbidding the use of rangefinders on the Sabbath!
 
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