B&H settles EEOC bias lawsuit for $4.3 million.

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endustry said:
Well, that wasn't my intent. I merely wondered if depriving certain individuals of a unique job opportunity that would specifically benefit them in ways few other jobs could all in the name of diversity is a good thing or a bad thing. One could, I suppose, stretch the definition of such a job and the people who would benefit from it simply to obfuscate the question but I believe that the case at hand--ultra-orthodox Jews who can work somewhere that places few limitations on their religious dress and does not pressure them to work on Jewish holidays--is pretty specific.
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It is a complex issue, but discrimination is discrimination if it excludes on the basis of race, color, creed, or national origin.

In my locale ther has been equally obfuscated (as you say) conversation with regard to admission of large numbers of Jewish students to a private Catholic school (estiamted at 30 - 50%). Some would say that if they have the grades necessary to be admitted and pay the tuition, then why not. Others say it dilutes the intent of the school... which is not to just provide a good education but to educate/promote the Catholic faith. By admitting non-Catholics to the school, Catholics are being denied the opportunity to be educated in their faith and worship with other Catholics. Who is being discrimated against?

It is a complex issue... but the law of discrimination is also pretty specific, and excluding based on basis of race, color, creed, or national origin... or paying less basis of race, color, creed, or national origin has been legislated as unjust.

EDIT: p.s. please don't think that I am anti-orthodox-judaism... I like thier film, cameras, and accessories just as much as I like anyone elses.
 
Gumby said:
It is a complex issue, but discrimination is discrimination if it excludes on the basis of race, color, creed, or national origin.

In my locale ther has been equally obfuscated (as you say) conversation with regard to admission of large numbers of Jewish students to a private Catholic school (estiamted at 30 - 50%). Some would say that if they have the grades necessary to be admitted and pay the tuition, then why not. Others say it dilutes the intent of the school... which is not to just provide a good education but to educate/promote the Catholic faith. By admitting non-Catholics to the school, Catholics are being denied the opportunity to be educated in their faith and worship with other Catholics. Who is being discrimated against?

It is a complex issue... but the law of discrimination is also pretty specific, and excluding based on basis of race, color, creed, or national origin... or paying less basis of race, color, creed, or national origin has been legislated as unjust.
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Unless the Catholic school is somehow receiving federal funds, I don't believe they are subject to discrimination laws on who they allow to attend.
 
Adorama Camera Customer Service

Adorama Camera Customer Service

Gumby said:
Ha... maybe several new threads. May I suggest a "Helen defends ADORAMA" thread and a "Guess what Raid is thinking" thread. :D
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Hey!! If you think I'm here only to defend Adorama, you have me figured ALL wrong.......

My job is to support Adorama customers, and provide a direct line into the company for suggestions, complaints (praise where it's due!!) etc.

I'm not a sales person - firstly I don't know enough about the products that we sell, and second, I'd end up giving it all away to customers that I thought had gotten a bad deal.

I've told several ex-Adorama customers that if I'd had the experiences they describe, I would also have voted with my feet.
However, during the 16 months I've been with Adorama I've seen numerous changes for the better, and a huge mprovement in customer service across the board.

Sincerely

Helen Oster
Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador

helen.oster@adoramacamera.com
www.adorama.com
 
Adorama Camera Customer Service

Adorama Camera Customer Service

endustry said:
Helen,

The new "take a number" system at Adorama is working out really well. No longer having to fight for the attention of salespeople makes shopping at Adorama much less stressful.

The only suggestion I would make is to open a register for "Accessories Only" (or something similar) so that customers who just want to buy a memory card or some other simple item do not have to wait behind someone else who is meticulously examining a camera or being given an exhaustive demonstration by a salesperson. An "express lane" if you will.
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Sending you a PM

Helen
 
endustry said:
... limitations on their religious dress and does not pressure them to work on Jewish holidays
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I believe this is illegal also. It is curious, though, that most American companies provide "Christian" holidays as paid holidays, but require Jews to take their religious holidays of using vacation pay. The point is not so much Christian versus Jewish holidays but the equality that the same number of vacation days, and the dates themselves (which are established largely by tradition rather than logic), are offered to all employees regardless of race, color, creed, or national origin.

I wonder... does B&H, as a predominantly orthodox-Jewish business who closes for Jewish holidays, offer Christmas or Easter to their Christian employees as a paid holiday? Or are they even ask employees to divulge their race, color, creed, or national origin... which I believe is illegal.
 
Based on the farmers and business owners and even some migrant workers that I know, the employment and immigration rules are a farce, having nothing to do with fairness and justice, they are only a way for the State to jack and extort money from the small businesses that create jobs. If they don't find something to fine or sue you for then they can't justify their budgets. Same with OSHA, the EPA, and probably most of our "safety" agencies.

I remember that 20 years ago B&H always felt a little "sharp" to a country boy like me, but now I appreciate their no-bull**** approach.
 
HelenOster said:
Hey!! If you think I'm here only to defend Adorama, you have me figured ALL wrong.......

(snip)

Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador
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OK, I can understand and appreciate that.

But I'm curious... what do you think of B&H's EEOC bias lawsuit? That was the topic before the thread diverged into a "how Adorama can improve customer service" discussion. You are in "the business" and should be positioned to give us better insight into what's going on. That would be a lot informative to the discussion at hand than us all speculating and postulating from our high horses! ;)
 
FA Limited said:
i remember on my visit there were an unusual number of latinos working in the checkout area and thought there must be some reason why, i'm sure i wasn't the only person who noticed this.
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I remember over a decade ago when there were zero, nada-nadia, persons of color working the floor. Only over the past five years have I seen it change.

As we know, court cases take years to come to trial. I wonder if this judgement was due to a trial or was it settled out of court.

IMHO it is very difficult to prove discrimination, although things are improving. Discrimination sucks!!!

Calzone
 
Gumby said:
I'm not a Human Resources guy, or a ACLU lawyer... is this true of private retail businesses also?
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No, a retail business has to obey discrimination laws. Even the Catholic church has to obey discrimination laws when it comes to hiring people for non-religion based activities. They can't discriminate against the people maintaining their buildings for instance.
Private clubs also can discriminate by not letting anyone in that doesn't meet their criteria. The first amendment protects freedom of association. I cannot, as a private citizen or group of citizens, be forced to associate with anyone. Of course, if I take a penny of public money, then I'm no longer "private," and all bets are off.
 
HelenOster said:
Hey!! If you think I'm here only to defend Adorama, you have me figured ALL wrong.......

My job is to support Adorama customers, and provide a direct line into the company for suggestions, complaints (praise where it's due!!) etc.

I'm not a sales person - firstly I don't know enough about the products that we sell, and second, I'd end up giving it all away to customers that I thought had gotten a bad deal.

I've told several ex-Adorama customers that if I'd had the experiences they describe, I would also have voted with my feet.
However, during the 16 months I've been with Adorama I've seen numerous changes for the better, and a huge mprovement in customer service across the board.

Sincerely

Helen Oster
Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador

helen.oster@adoramacamera.com
www.adorama.com
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With all due respect Helen, your position (as the same could be said about Henry Posner's position at B&H) is to "spin" the bad experience of one (or a number) of individuals so that it appears that there is some sense of "caring" from the point of view of the business as a whole.

The sad part is, the entire corporation/company structure (be it Adorama, B&H, American Express, etc. etc. etc.) cannot be "caring" since, while it is made up of "individuals", is not a human being in and of itself. A company cannot be caring - individuals (i.e. human beings) that you may interact with can, however, offer empathy/sympathy etc.

If these staff that were involved with such bad experiences were trained and screened properly before hand, there would be no need for positions like yours and/or Henry's or any other "customer service ambassador".

Cheers,
Dave
 
I wonder how many who have said they will never shop at B&H again, because of alleged discrimination, have ever spent their money on a cruise?
When I worked on Princess Cruises they began systematically hiring from poorer regions of the world to staff positions at lower wages compared to people in the same position from wealthier areas.
As as example, a Canadian or British photographer was being paid about two hundred dollars a month more than a Mexican doing the exact same job. In some departments they eliminated English-speaking westerners altogether and replaced them with Filipinos or Indonesians at much, much lower wages.
Do you research the hiring practices of every company you do business with?
 
swoop said:
lol. Sarcasm right? Two years ago you'd be hard pressed to find a goyim anywhere in the place.

They're surprisingly diverse now.

Adorama was the same way, although never to the extent that a large scale operation like B&H was.

But you can hardly blame them. Despite their large size and sales influence they are a privately owned business. Have you ever seen a non Asian working at a Chinese restaurant?
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Acually in the Upper East Side I saw a Latino working as a waitor in a Chinese restaurant on 2d Ave. Also I have seen a lot of the kitchen help in Chinese restaurants being Latinos.

This all was in NYC.

Calzone
 
Now go easy on her, Dave. Without people like Helen and Henry things would never get any better. The issues should be not so much what they are doing, but the way they convoltue threads with off-topic discussion... no matter how well-intentioned it may be.
 
endustry said:
While I'm sure you're right, Gumby, I think Helen only jumped in when someone made a non sequitur jab at Adorama. I don't think it would be very professional for her to comment on the affairs of a competitor. Besides, the complete facts behind the entire issue are now probably sealed as part of the settlement terms so no one either in the business or just surfing RFF will ever know for sure what was what.
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We are friends, you can call me "ed." :)

My tongue was in my cheek. I could not find the correct emeticon for that. Helen has always maintained a highly professional demeanor and I wouldn't really expect her to comment on B&H.
 
Gumby said:
Now go easy on her, Dave. Without people like Helen and Henry things would never get any better. The issues should be not so much what they are doing, but the way they convoltue threads with off-topic discussion... no matter how well-intentioned it may be.
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I agree.. and I'm not coming down on her or Henry, just being clear as to what their roles are within their respective companies.

I mean, really, there will always be "bad" customer service going on out there regardless of the business but having a "customer service liaison", while entirely necessary, sort of loses its impact if the "liaising" is done after the fact.

Timeliness is extremely important when it comes to correcting (and avoiding) customer service issues.

Having dealt for 11 years with people's money in a bank has taught me that ;D

Cheers,
Dave
 
raid said:
I never said so, did I?
You seem to be rather unfriendly and agressive on RFF.
Calm down and think more about what you write here before you do it.
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I beg your pardon? You think I am "unfriendly and agressive", amigo? I just asked what you were implying... I agree, you never said anything. Then why did you post a mesage... to get one more added to your post-count?

I'm calm, amigo, and I do think about what I say before posting. Do you?

EDIT: Try editting out one more line, amigo... it is equally offensive.
 
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