Baseball, US Flag, Patriotism, and a Dead Photographer

Thanks for sharing both the photo and the story, Bill. I'm also glad you came out in favor of free speech, including flag burning. You'd have to be a pretty big moron to burn the flag in protest of a cause you actually cared about, because in the US it just turns people off so much it's just a huge disservice. It would be more like protesting war by beating up an old lady or something (except beating up old ladies isn't Constitutionally protected speech, of course...I'm talking about effectiveness here). But it's sad and disconcerting how few Americans understand the nature of free speech, i.e. that it must apply to offensive and obnoxious speech as well as dumb, smart, and patriotic speech. Way off topic, I know.....John/sooner
 
BrianPhotog said:
And if you ask anyone here where the hamburger comes from, they'll know.
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Hamburgers were called Swiss Steaks until about 30 years ago in Italy, and someone told me that the Swiss had been eating what you call Hamburgers even before the USA existed, the name itself however seems to suggest a German horigin (from the town of Hamburg).
So you see if you ask me the only think I know is that probably they don't come from the USA.
 
Pretty amazing. I'm trying to rmember what was going on in '84. Must have been the Iran-Contra scandal. I was probably at work and missed the entire incident (the flag burning).

I know where I stood then. I wouldn't have chosen to burn a flag over it though. I was more concerned about the tail end of the cold war. I digress.

I imagine the two morons who decided that a baseball game was good place for a flag burning must have felt pretty dumb when the crowd responded the way it did. Where are they now? Probably lawyers for an international bank or an oil corporation.

James Roark's fate though... that truly bites.
 
sooner said:
But it's sad and disconcerting how few Americans understand the nature of free speech, i.e. that it must apply to offensive and obnoxious speech as well as dumb, smart, and patriotic speech. Way off topic, I know.....John/sooner
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The most difficult lesson of freedom is that it can hurt. Defending the right of those who would do what you abhor - this is the test.

However, in the confines of the baseball park, which is private property, Monday was entirely right to do what he did. And my heart cheers him on.

Patriotism is often confused with jingoism, but this is where the difference is clear. Patriotism supports the rights of citizens, jingoism defends a bit of cloth over civil liberties. Patriotism is not a dirty word.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Fedzilla_Bob said:
I know where I stood then. I wouldn't have chosen to burn a flag over it though.
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I always thought that flag burning is really a silly way of protesting, you upset a lot of people, and they are not going to be interested in what was your point.

That said I am 100% with Bill on this one: I may strongly disagree with someone's ideas, but I will always fight for his right to express them.
 
bmattock said:
Don't worry, I don't take it that way at all. A number of things bothered me about it, including:

1) Baseball is supposed to be international. Would we feel the same if it had been a Canadian flag?

2) The photo itself is fine - pure photojournalism, just a grab shot of a newsworthy topic. But as you said, it doesn't tell too much of the story on its own. Not that it could have.

3) I actually support the right to freedom of speech, which would include burning the flag. I'd hate that someone wanted to do it, but would support their right to do so. Not in the baseball park though - that's private property.

4) The real story here - to me - is what happened to the photographer - why was he fired? How was it he could not get another job as a PJ? Why did he have to end up working as a short-order cook and then be murdered?

But the 'flag' story pulls at the heartstrings, so there you go.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
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He may have been let go as the paper went under. :(

The paper was in [IIRC] a decade long fight with at least one union and the owners finally closed down rather than give in to the demands. :eek:

As for the photo, I do feel it tells a story. :)

and as for the what if... since the burning of a US flag seems to be more symbolic on both sides of the match it may not be nearly the statement if it had been another flag.
 
bmattock said:
Patriotism is often confused with jingoism, but this is where the difference is clear. Patriotism supports the rights of citizens, jingoism defends a bit of cloth over civil liberties. Patriotism is not a dirty word.
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True, unfortunately a lot of people seems to think that if you disagree with the actions of your government, then you are anti-patriotic (even people in positions of power), and is this kind of attitude that gives a bad image to patriotism.
 
i say burn all the flags of all nations or make clothes out of them...
 
Thanks for showing us this Bill. I had never heard this story before.
I believe the photo stands on its own. There are enough elements there to engage the viewer's interest and to read the story for the details. A good photograph doesn't necessarily have to tell the whole entire story without words, as long as it draws you in and raises questions.
I don't think most serious sports fans are proprietary when it comes to great moments in the history of their favourite sports. Anyone can see this was a significant event. You don't have to be Canadian to recognize that Team Canada beating the Soviets in 1972 was one of the greatest moments in the history of hockey.
Although we don't have the same reverence for our flag as Americans, I'm sure most Canadians understand and respect the reason behind it - even if we think it's a little weird sometimes!
Sad about the photog but the initial report makes him sound like a bit of a down-and-outer, which may not be true. As someone else mentioned, many newspaper photogs burn out and change careers. After working as a photographer, reporter and sports editor at a few different weekly papers I actually became ashamed of some of the things I felt I had to photograph or write and wasn't happy working in that business. So I left.
 
Brian, basketball was invented in Canada by a Canadian. We just suck at it because we flood and freeze any decent sized arena in the winter, and we wouldn't have it any other way.....
We also have a competing claim for the 1st game of baseball, and apparently the 1st forward pass in football (distinguishing it from rugby) was thrown at a University of Toronto game in the 1870's.
We're still working on a claim for Kentucky Fried Chicken, but that's a little tougher. Let me see, if Col. Sanders was really Burl Ives, and he was born in Saskatchewan........
 
Bill, I agree with everything in your response to my last posting. There are some who believe that patriotism itself is a destructive force, or that religion only leads to violence against other faiths. I am not such a person. To me, the key is how we define and practice our patriotism, whether that means holding an elected official immune from criticism or being aware and critical and possibly even holding him responsible for illegal violations of the law. One thing we all have in common is that no matter how we define patriotism, we all consider ourselves the most patriotic son-of-a-bi**h alive! I know I do. Ha. --john
 
fgianni said:
Hamburgers were called Swiss Steaks until about 30 years ago in Italy, and someone told me that the Swiss had been eating what you call Hamburgers even before the USA existed, the name itself however seems to suggest a German horigin (from the town of Hamburg).
So you see if you ask me the only think I know is that probably they don't come from the USA.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger
 
It's an interesting story, and I am also wondering about the life of the photographer. If anyone finds details, please post.
 
anandi said:
It's an interesting story, and I am also wondering about the life of the photographer. If anyone finds details, please post.
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I did, if you check the thread.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Hamburgers (the meat) originate from Germany, but putting it between two pieces of bread etc is an American invention, so both sides can argue they invented the hamburger...

A less controversial origination of food is that the so-called 'french fries' are not french at all, but belgian, damnit!
 
jvx said:
Hamburgers (the meat) originate from Germany, but putting it between two pieces of bread etc is an American invention, so both sides can argue they invented the hamburger...
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When really it was the Romans! (Apicitus, De re coquinaria c.115 AD....

http://www.realm-of-shade.com/sweetlady/cuisine/rec2.html

Liquamen was rather like Worcester Sauce and Caroenum was a sweet, vinegary, pickle-like paste made from wine, honey, spice and salt

Yum!:D

Ian
 
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jvx said:
Hamburgers (the meat) originate from Germany
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According to the Wikipedia link posted earlier making steaks with minced beef can be traced to the Tartars in the 13th century.
 
Jocko said:
When really it was the Romans! (Apicitus, De re coquinaria c.115 AD
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The plot gets thicker!

Anyone got any earlier reference?
Maybe the Greeks or the Egyptians?
 
Every red blooded and meat eating Canadian knows that it was HARVY who invented the real hamburger. :D :D :p :p

It must have been a long time ago because their slogan "Meat-Fire-Good" sounds
like very primitive english. ;)

Regards to all,

Bill K
 
Took his name from Ayn Rand's Howard Roark...I find that very intriguing. That is an incredibly hard name to live up to, the uberindividualist with rock-solid self confidence and self-assurance together with a complete disregard, no... complete non-regard (if there is such a thing) for the impressions he leaves on others. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it's just hard to do. I can understand the photojournalism aspect with the "selfishness" (Ayn's version), but being a chef seems to have fewer absolutes than the art of a photo... different tastes, blends, etc.
 
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