Basics in film processing - Help!

[pedro.m.reis]

Hi there.
I'm learning to develop my own BW films. But, i'm getting some inconsistent results.
Since I dont know where the problem is, I ask for your help.
I'm using the following products:
Developer: RODINAL
Fixer: AGEFIX
Stop Bath: Kodak
And AGEPON.
I use all the chemical in the recomended dilution.
For the processes, i do the following:
I make all the dilutions, put them for an hour in a bath of tap water. Then i get the temperature of the developer and process as recomended (usualy i use the times/dilutions found in The Massive Dev Chart).
Assuming that the times i get is, for example, 13m @ 20Cº/68Fº, i use an chart obtained in Ilford Web Site (i think) and do 10m30s for 22Cº/72Fº.
Then i start the clock and start to pour the developer in the tank. I use a tank for 2 35mm rols, but i dilute the enough for one roll. I't taker about 40s to fill the tank.
During the developing time i do the recomeded inversions, like 5 inversions each 1m.
When the time is up, i pour off the developer and pour in the stop bath for usualy 5 minuts.
Then I save the stop bath and pour the fixer, for 15 minuts.
After saving the fixer, i then do the wash.
For washing, i fill the tank with the tap water and do 3x20 inversions and 3x30 inversions (changing the water each time).
After that i put the Agepon for 5 minuts, and hang the film for about 3 hours in dust free enviroment.

So ... is there anything i'm doing wrong?

I welcome all inputs 🙂

 

[Roman]

A few points:
-) It is said that Rodinal should not be used at temperatures above 20°C, as it gives more grain (I have not tested this myself, though).
-) You should not let your Rodinal working solution sit for an hour - Rodinal, once diluted, goes bad very fast. Just try to reach the desired temperature by adding hot and cold water till you have reached the right temperature at the right dilution.
-) With B&W processing, the chemicals don't have to be exactly the same temperature +/- 3 or 4°C is still OK.
-) With stop bath, 30 sec. to 1 min. is totally enough.
-) With fixer, 4 to 6 min. is enough (make a fixing test - use the cut-off film leader, and check how long it takes to get it completely clear when you put it into the fixer - then use double that time for your film.
-) Your washing scheme seems quite OK - just make sure that you let the film sit in the water a bit after the inversions (the film should be in water for at least 5 minutes after fixing.
-) I don't use Agepon (or any other wetting agent), just demineralized water, but if you don't get any drying marks, it's OK.

Roman

 

[Toby]

Personally I wouldn't recommend rodinal as a first-timers developer. Use either Kodak d76 or Ilford Id11 they are the "standard" developers for b&w film.

 

[djon]

You said something about using a 2 reel tank and diluting for one roll. Do you mean that you used 1:50 dilution (sounds like it) and diluted again to make 250cc fill the 500cc tank? Same as using 1:25 dilution and diluting again to make 250cc fill 500cc? That'd be a mistake.

Stop bath is unnecessary with developers that work slowly. Just use plain water...fill tank and drain twice, then fix. For the same reason (slow working) it's not necessary to worry about slow filling of the tank with 13 min processing time...you wouldn't see 30seconds either way.

I don't think processing at higher than 20C is a problem if you adjust time to the higher temp and keep all your temps within the same 5C range.

Why aren't you happy with your results? What would you like to improve? 😕

Rodinal is a wonderful developer, but I think it's mostly intentionally used to produce sharp grain and a unique "edge effect." If you aren't eager to study grain and this special effect
you might try some other developer, early in your learning curve. 😉

Nobody seems to mention it these days, but I think Edwal FG7 is the ideal developer for a quality-conscious beginner,...as well as being an excellent general purpose developer for highly experienced people...allows sharpness, fine grain, contrast control, pushing etc etc etc. I may order a bottle myself, since I've gotten off into strange-developer-land recently...I should compare my results to FG7 😀

 

[pedro.m.reis]

A few points:
-) It is said that Rodinal should not be used at temperatures above 20°C, as it gives more grain (I have not tested this myself, though).
-) You should not let your Rodinal working solution sit for an hour - Rodinal, once diluted, goes bad very fast. Just try to reach the desired temperature by adding hot and cold water till you have reached the right temperature at the right dilution.
-) With fixer, 4 to 6 min. is enough (make a fixing test - use the cut - off film leader, and check how long it takes to get it completely clear when you put it into the fixer - the use double that time for your film.
-) Your washing scheme seems quite OK - just make sure that you let the film sit in the water a bit after the inversions (the film should be in water for at least 5 minutes after fixing.
Roman

I dont let the Rodinal solution sit for an hour... just the water of the solution.
The fixer is staying for 15m because the "guru" of the Lab where i buy the products said so, after i showed him some negs i processed. He said "it needs more fixing, at least 12-15m". My negs where not "clean" he said.
I've never realysed that the film must stay quiet in the water in the washing process. I just did the inversions and pour off the water. One time for 5m after all the inversions is enough?

Tks

 

[pedro.m.reis]

Hey🙂
Also, any decent pro lab which processes by hand will put the film into the developer, rather than pouring developer into the drum with the film in it. This will eliminate any variations due to the time taken to pour the chemicals. It should also reduce the likelihood of air bubbles forming on the film - but you should still give the drum a tap to dislodge any bubbles which do form!
ManGo

Hummm for that i need to do it all in the dark right?

 

[djon]

Use some kind of rapid fix...Kodak, for example. Don't use a fix that takes more than 5 minutes.

 

[pedro.m.reis]

You said something about using a 2 reel tank and diluting for one roll. Do you mean that you used 1:50 dilution (sounds like it) and diluted again to make 250cc fill the 500cc tank? Same as using 1:25 dilution and diluting again to make 250cc fill 500cc? That'd be a mistake.

Stop bath is unnecessary with developers that work slowly. Just use plain water...fill tank and drain twice, then fix. For the same reason (slow working) it's not necessary to worry about slow filling of the tank with 13 min processing time...you wouldn't see 30seconds either way.

I don't think processing at higher than 20C is a problem if you adjust time to the higher temp and keep all your temps within the same 5C range.

Why aren't you happy with your results? What would you like to improve? 😕

Rodinal is a wonderful developer, but I think it's mostly intentionally used to produce sharp grain and a unique "edge effect." If you aren't eager to study grain and this special effect
you might try some other developer, early in your learning curve. 😉

Nobody seems to mention it these days, but I think Edwal FG7 is the ideal developer for a quality-conscious beginner,...as well as being an excellent general purpose developer for highly experienced people...allows sharpness, fine grain, contrast control, pushing etc etc etc. I may order a bottle myself, since I've gotten off into strange-developer-land recently...I should compare my results to FG7 😀

I use 450ml of water + 8,8 ml of Rodinal in each dilution.

I?m not happy with the results because sometimes i get stains, very dark negatives, other times exessive grain, etc.

I'm using Rodinal because it was the developer i bought frst 🙂 and the most cheap i found 🙂.

 

[pedro.m.reis]

Hey🙂

Not quite. Have the developer in the tank with the lid beside it. Load the film onto the spirals. Start your timer (you may want to add 10 seconds onto the timer to allow for a bit of fumbling in the dark). Drop the spirals into the processing tank and put on the lid. Do your first cycle of agitation. You can now turn on the light and proceed as before. You can do all the rest with the light on as per normal.

ManGo

Ok ... i'll try that in my next processing job 🙂.

Tks

 

[djon]

If you're getting one type of problem one time, another type of problem another time, you're doing something different each time.

Personally, I think it's better to pour chemistry into tanks, the way they were designed, and the way most skilled photographers do it.

Unless you're using an incredibly fast developer (eg 3 min) the time taken to pour in the chem is irrelevant. However if you have a very well organized sink or tray for your filled tank, such that you don't make too much of a mess when you load reels into the filled tank, it probably makes no difference....other than making things less convenient.

Don't simply believe that putting the reel into the chemistry automatically means the film is equally wetted...that won't happen until you agitate it.

 

[titrisol]

You seem to be doing everything right, now a few thing:
- How are you measuring the ROdinal? there maybe a small incosistence in there.
- Are you using 1+50 preferentially? due to the longer times it takes it can give you more consistent results [less influence of errors]
- I'd agitate just once per minute (2 or 3 inversions), tap it lightly on the table or with the palm of your hand to dislodge bubbles each time.
- 15 min in the fixer is excessive, probably 5-7 minutes is more than enough
- Washing procedure is perfect

What kind of incosistencies are you having?
Could these be due to the exposure rather than development?

Hi there.
I'm learning to develop my own BW films. But, i'm getting some inconsistent results.
Since I dont know where the problem is, I ask for your help.
I'm using the following products:
Developer: RODINAL
Fixer: AGEFIX
Stop Bath: Kodak
And AGEPON.
I use all the chemical in the recomended dilution.
For the processes, i do the following:
I make all the dilutions, put them for an hour in a bath of tap water. Then i get the temperature of the developer and process as recomended (usualy i use the times/dilutions found in The Massive Dev Chart).
Assuming that the times i get is, for example, 13m @ 20Cº/68Fº, i use an chart obtained in Ilford Web Site (i think) and do 10m30s for 22Cº/72Fº.
Then i start the clock and start to pour the developer in the tank. I use a tank for 2 35mm rols, but i dilute the enough for one roll. I't taker about 40s to fill the tank.
During the developing time i do the recomeded inversions, like 5 inversions each 1m.
When the time is up, i pour off the developer and pour in the stop bath for usualy 5 minuts.
Then I save the stop bath and pour the fixer, for 15 minuts.
After saving the fixer, i then do the wash.
For washing, i fill the tank with the tap water and do 3x20 inversions and 3x30 inversions (changing the water each time).
After that i put the Agepon for 5 minuts, and hang the film for about 3 hours in dust free enviroment.

So ... is there anything i'm doing wrong?

I welcome all inputs 🙂

 

[markinlondon]

One more question, Pedro.

Are you using lots of different films?

When starting out, it's easy to get overwhelmed by the "ooh, I'll try a roll of that now, and then some of this" factor. I know I did 😱

I'd advise getting the hang of one emulsion and one developer (test until you get what you like) before moving on, but have to second the remarks about Rodinal, a more general-purpose liquid like DD-X or HC-110 might get you off to a better start.

And before the Church of Rodinal send the inquisition round, check the credits in my gallery. 🙂

Mark

 

[Solinar]

Folks, I usually do a variation of stand devolopment with Rodinal. So the issue getting the time of immersion and extraction to the exact second when using a dilution of 1:100 becomes moot even with three rolls in the tank. - But -in a tank with three reels, that variation may be upwards to 20 to 30 seconds given the rate of pouring develper into, out of the tank and pouring in your stop solution.

Roman, as usual made some excellent comments. I usually let my working solution sit in a temperature bath for anywhere from 45 minutes to an 1 hour.

Rodinal was my first developer back in the 70's with a Rondinax 120 tank.

I will say that not all films work well in Rodinal. I prefer using Rodinal with older non-tabular grained silver halide immulsions in 120., but to each his own.

 

[pedro.m.reis]

You seem to be doing everything right, now a few thing:
- How are you measuring the ROdinal? there maybe a small incosistence in there.
- Are you using 1+50 preferentially? due to the longer times it takes it can give you more consistent results [less influence of errors]
- I'd agitate just once per minute (2 or 3 inversions), tap it lightly on the table or with the palm of your hand to dislodge bubbles each time.
- 15 min in the fixer is excessive, probably 5-7 minutes is more than enough
- Washing procedure is perfect

What kind of incosistencies are you having?
Could these be due to the exposure rather than development?

I mesure the Rodinal with a seringe i bought in a pharmacy .. it seems the right tool for the job at the time 🙂, and yes, 1+50 is my dilution.
Is there any problem with the 15m fixing? I think i've read someware that with fixing there is a minumum time but not maximum.

And yes, maybe tsome of the problem could be exposure, so i'm trying to validate my process first. 🙂

 

[pedro.m.reis]

One more question, Pedro.

Are you using lots of different films?

When starting out, it's easy to get overwhelmed by the "ooh, I'll try a roll of that now, and then some of this" factor. I know I did 😱

I'd advise getting the hang of one emulsion and one developer (test until you get what you like) before moving on, but have to second the remarks about Rodinal, a more general-purpose liquid like DD-X or HC-110 might get you off to a better start.

And before the Church of Rodinal send the inquisition round, check the credits in my gallery. 🙂

Mark

Not using lots of films until i get it right. I'm only using tri-x and ocasional agfa pan. I think i get better results
with the agfa...But I've tryed 1:25 dilution with very bad results, 1:100 and 1:50 with very inconsistent results 🙂

 

[titrisol]

Over fixing tends to " bleach" the sahdows after a long time....
15 minutes ahould still be OK, but it's an overkill.

To make sure take a piece of the leader of your film, wet it and drop it in the fixer with agitation,
take the time it takes to become clear, use 3X that time.

 

[markinlondon]

I'm stumped then, Pedro. If there are two emulsions that love Rodinal, they are Tri-x and Agfa Pan 100. I've just uploaded two pictures of sheep to the gallery and couldn't remember what developer I used, but I've since found my notes for that roll and it's Rodinal 1:100 (EI 200 18mins @ 20C agitation for 10 secs every 3 mins). Will send up a frame from Tri-x @200 in DDX for comparison, see Bill at La Ruga for this combo.

Mark

 

[Solinar]

You just named my two films that I use with Rodinal, Tri-X and APX 100

 

[markinlondon]

Pedro, also see "The session at Adrian's birthday do" for Tri-x in Rodinal 1:50. The scan does not begin to convey how sharp and detailed the print is, but the grain is huge!! I'm not saying these are the acme of Tri-x and Rodinal, but I like the results. There are also a couple of FP4 in Rodinal shots in there too.

Solinar, for me it's FP4 and Tri-x but then I've yet to fnd a developer that makes FP4 look bad 😀

Mark

 

[djon]

Stains were mentioned.

Stains come from chemical residue. This suggests you're using plastic reels and/or not doing sufficiently careful reel cleaning between processing runs.

Plastic reels are hard to clean totally, but if you wash VERY thoroughly, with intense flow of water, between processing runs you will reduce contamination of film by residue.

If you're using somebody else's old plastic reels, that may be part of your problem. Used plastic reels may be impossible to clean adequately, once somebody's used them, let them sit around after failing to clean them carefully enough.

I'd suggest steel reels but a lot of amateurs believe mistakenly that plastic reels are easier to load, due to false advertising that Patterson and others place in low level magazines. Pros virtually always use steel reels, specifically because plastic is actually HARDER to load and difficult to clean. Patterson/Jobo uses plastic only because Patterson/Jobo is a plastics company, not because it's a proper material for the job.