Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Based on my preference for shooting people I would do it gladly.
George Bonanno
Well-known
I would be more than happy to photograph a family members seven year old daughter in NYC provided I wasn’t booked beforehand. And to think you waste your time, money, effort and energy on gaffer taping cameras to take crappy pictures at... Burning Man ??? You should be ashamed of yourself for airing your dirty laundry on RFF.
ruby.monkey
Veteran
Nominated? Who by? And for what reason?
If it were someone I liked and who did so because he appreciated my artistic abilities (*very* unlikely) then I'd consider it; if it were a case of 'eh, why pay a pro when muggins can do it for free' then I'd suggest the other party go boil his head. And if the kid is ugly then all bets are off.
If it were someone I liked and who did so because he appreciated my artistic abilities (*very* unlikely) then I'd consider it; if it were a case of 'eh, why pay a pro when muggins can do it for free' then I'd suggest the other party go boil his head. And if the kid is ugly then all bets are off.
lynnb
Veteran
Short answer: you need to have a formal, written, signed agreement in place before accepting the job. Even with family.
Also: mixing family with business can be a minefield.
Some questions to ask yourself:
- How happy are you to mix family with business. Family can sometimes increase/change demands and product requirement (including asking you to reshoot or additional shoot) and then say "but you already agreed to do it", "it's just another dress which will look better" etc. How do you place limits on your commitment?
- Decide who will legally own the images, what purposes they can be used for (e.g. personal or commercial), and for what time limits (if any). If it were me I would retain copyright and give the sister in law a licence to use them for x and y purposes and (optional) for z time period. Imagine if you take some stunning shots and your sister in law says you can't use them or show them because they're legally hers. Would you be happy with that?
- Are you likely to be fairly compensated (paid) for your work? If it's a personal favour then perhaps reduced or even no compensation (if no compensation, then what about out of pocket expenses). Depends on your relationship. But what if she then (perhaps later) uses the photos commercially to promote a pageant or her daughter's career. Are you comfortable with that? Would you feel used? That's why most agreements have specified uses and time limits, as well as stating who owns copyright.
- How much time, realistically, are you willing to devote to it? See above about changed demands. Remember shooting time is only a small part of total time taken when you consider travel and processing/scanning/post processing. Spend half a day shooting and several days in image processing. Deliver finished result to sister in law who rings and says, "can you just make them all look more like this (attaches sample from some other photographer from the web)".
- What do you want out of it? Maybe the personal satisfaction and challenge will outweigh all other factors. Maybe the family relationship outweighs all other factors. Do you want the opportunity to make great photos - and also to have ownership of them so you can show them or use them to promote your photography?
- Will this set a precedent that will cause you grief in the future? Will other relatives ask for similar favours at the same rate/conditions? Families, where would we be without them..
I'm very reluctant to mix family with business - in my experience there's too much potential for misunderstanding, exploitation and tears. So I would consider this as either a business proposition, or a gift, and I'd be very careful to ensure a clear mutual understanding of the limits of my commitment and the ownership of my work.
Your decision. At the very least, go in with your eyes wide open.
Cheers,
Also: mixing family with business can be a minefield.
Some questions to ask yourself:
- How happy are you to mix family with business. Family can sometimes increase/change demands and product requirement (including asking you to reshoot or additional shoot) and then say "but you already agreed to do it", "it's just another dress which will look better" etc. How do you place limits on your commitment?
- Decide who will legally own the images, what purposes they can be used for (e.g. personal or commercial), and for what time limits (if any). If it were me I would retain copyright and give the sister in law a licence to use them for x and y purposes and (optional) for z time period. Imagine if you take some stunning shots and your sister in law says you can't use them or show them because they're legally hers. Would you be happy with that?
- Are you likely to be fairly compensated (paid) for your work? If it's a personal favour then perhaps reduced or even no compensation (if no compensation, then what about out of pocket expenses). Depends on your relationship. But what if she then (perhaps later) uses the photos commercially to promote a pageant or her daughter's career. Are you comfortable with that? Would you feel used? That's why most agreements have specified uses and time limits, as well as stating who owns copyright.
- How much time, realistically, are you willing to devote to it? See above about changed demands. Remember shooting time is only a small part of total time taken when you consider travel and processing/scanning/post processing. Spend half a day shooting and several days in image processing. Deliver finished result to sister in law who rings and says, "can you just make them all look more like this (attaches sample from some other photographer from the web)".
- What do you want out of it? Maybe the personal satisfaction and challenge will outweigh all other factors. Maybe the family relationship outweighs all other factors. Do you want the opportunity to make great photos - and also to have ownership of them so you can show them or use them to promote your photography?
- Will this set a precedent that will cause you grief in the future? Will other relatives ask for similar favours at the same rate/conditions? Families, where would we be without them..
I'm very reluctant to mix family with business - in my experience there's too much potential for misunderstanding, exploitation and tears. So I would consider this as either a business proposition, or a gift, and I'd be very careful to ensure a clear mutual understanding of the limits of my commitment and the ownership of my work.
Your decision. At the very least, go in with your eyes wide open.
Cheers,
lynnb
Veteran
PS: I think it would be great fun to photograph a 7 year old in a pretty dress in NYC...
leicapixie
Well-known
I looked at OP site.
Very nice work.
I suggest your Sister in law and daughter look at that and then decide!
You prefer prints to digital images floating in space, so that
means work.Serious work if you do it all, yourself.
There are costs whether it be digital or film.
I no longer simply shoot pix for folks, "as a favor".
It is an assignment.
What are the pix for?
If purely for their use as a memento of NYC visit, use a simple rig,
i use P/S digital, clean up JPEG in Picasa, making prints at wherever.
Tell them what and how.If you do prints, better be paid!
Very nice work.
I suggest your Sister in law and daughter look at that and then decide!
You prefer prints to digital images floating in space, so that
means work.Serious work if you do it all, yourself.
There are costs whether it be digital or film.
I no longer simply shoot pix for folks, "as a favor".
It is an assignment.
What are the pix for?
If purely for their use as a memento of NYC visit, use a simple rig,
i use P/S digital, clean up JPEG in Picasa, making prints at wherever.
Tell them what and how.If you do prints, better be paid!
jesse1dog
Light Catcher
Agree a lot with what Lynn has written!
However it seems you aren't too enthusiastic!
Maybe you need a trial run so ask sister in law if you can photo her first so that you can both judge the possibilities! That could decide this issue and any more that might crop up in the future!
j
However it seems you aren't too enthusiastic!
Maybe you need a trial run so ask sister in law if you can photo her first so that you can both judge the possibilities! That could decide this issue and any more that might crop up in the future!
j
Thardy
Veteran
Interesting dilemma. Does she know your style? Maybe she wants those gritty city scenes you do so well.
BTW I saved your blog addy.
BTW I saved your blog addy.
Addy101
Well-known
If you don't want to do it, just say no.
If you want to do it, just do it, but make some things absolutely clear:
You do it your way - and as suggested that may include mom isn't there!
Have fun.
As Lynn pointed out, have your bases covered - full written agreement might be overkill, but a written acknowledgement of what was agreed helps if something goes sour. Unless you're a pro, then do what you do with your clients and let them sign a contract. They'll understand.
When you're a pro, do it for a reduced fee, it is work, you know
I did a few weddings for friends this way, just because I like taking photographs and it is a huge gift. They just have to wait at least three months for the results
If you want to do it, just do it, but make some things absolutely clear:
You do it your way - and as suggested that may include mom isn't there!
Have fun.
As Lynn pointed out, have your bases covered - full written agreement might be overkill, but a written acknowledgement of what was agreed helps if something goes sour. Unless you're a pro, then do what you do with your clients and let them sign a contract. They'll understand.
When you're a pro, do it for a reduced fee, it is work, you know
I did a few weddings for friends this way, just because I like taking photographs and it is a huge gift. They just have to wait at least three months for the results
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
In your first post there is a hint of distaste at your sister in law's attitude towards her daughter ... especially regarding pageants and I can sympathize with that. I think they are an abomination and are capable of turning a decent child into a self centered narcissist without some serious parental grounding .... it happens for sure!
After thinking about this I'm going to reverse my opinion in my previous post and suggest you say "no thanks!"
After thinking about this I'm going to reverse my opinion in my previous post and suggest you say "no thanks!"
JChrome
Street Worker
Thanks for all of the responses. I really like how the responses really run the gamut from the 'do it for the challenge and for the family' to the 'don't do it because of artistic integrity' and others.
I really felt torn between these two. I love shooting in the streets of NYC and my niece in white tulle would be a unique subject. But, as others have intuited from the OP, I really feel that the sister-in-law is more interested in a fashion show than anything resembling what I would call 'art'.
After not reading the thread yesterday but mulling the problem over in my head, I came to the conclusion that I should just do it my way and warn my sister that I may come out with something to her liking. But I may not.
Going on assignment today, will let you know how it turns out.
I really felt torn between these two. I love shooting in the streets of NYC and my niece in white tulle would be a unique subject. But, as others have intuited from the OP, I really feel that the sister-in-law is more interested in a fashion show than anything resembling what I would call 'art'.
After not reading the thread yesterday but mulling the problem over in my head, I came to the conclusion that I should just do it my way and warn my sister that I may come out with something to her liking. But I may not.
Going on assignment today, will let you know how it turns out.
paulfish4570
Veteran
good decision.
my wife tells me all the time what to photograph when it comes to grandchildren. i try to shoot what she wants, then go about my business otherwise.
as for children's pageants, the pageants and judges are very specific about what they want. just do what you can do, and let the girl's mom decide on her own to look elsewhere for pageant-specific photos. it's a win-win ...
my wife tells me all the time what to photograph when it comes to grandchildren. i try to shoot what she wants, then go about my business otherwise.
as for children's pageants, the pageants and judges are very specific about what they want. just do what you can do, and let the girl's mom decide on her own to look elsewhere for pageant-specific photos. it's a win-win ...
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Yes that says it for me, too. That is how I feel about it.
bayernfan
Well-known
you probably won't see this by the time you start, but i say do it and make it completely haunting. dark shadows, eerie hallways, gritty, etc
two reasons:
the first: it be completely amazing to do this.
the second: your sister in-law might finally get a clue.
Greyscale
Veteran
I am "that guy" in my family. I don't usually mind. But what irked me the last time was being told to use my digital camera. You wouldn't even think about telling a carpenter what hammer to use, or a plumber which wrench, or a doctor which scalpel to choose. I am not as comfortable shooting digital as I am shooting film. I felt like saying "but that is what cellphones are for", but I conceded for the sake of family harmony at the cost of my soul, and I took several dozen uninspired snapshots that made everyone else happy but me.
DNG
Film Friendly
Just make sure "Mom" understands that you ARE NOT doing Pageant Portfolio photos, and you are fine taking some nice photo's of your daughter for family album type stuff...
And if that was the intention (Pageant Portfolio) from the advance group decision... then they should buck up and pay for your obvious talent
Have a good session!!
And if that was the intention (Pageant Portfolio) from the advance group decision... then they should buck up and pay for your obvious talent
Have a good session!!
tempest68
Established
Just because you were nominated does require you to accept the nomination.
I would insist on creative freedom, and payment as if they were a normal paying client. Tell the mom you want her ideas, but ultimately you will decide whether any given concept works or not. And if the mom will be "on set", that during the shoot she is to keep quiet and not interfere with the way you work, or the shoot will end immediately.
I would insist on creative freedom, and payment as if they were a normal paying client. Tell the mom you want her ideas, but ultimately you will decide whether any given concept works or not. And if the mom will be "on set", that during the shoot she is to keep quiet and not interfere with the way you work, or the shoot will end immediately.
giellaleafapmu
Well-known
I started reading this thread because I couldn't really understand where it was going and...I still don't.
Being told what to photograph is standard practice in professional photography. There are those who sell pieces of art, those who shoot stock (sometimes at very high level as for some nature photographers) and many other who shoot under order (I'd dare to say the vast majority). So I don't see any problem on that ground alone. However, I cannot understand if you are willing to shoot these pictures. If you think you are not comfortable doing that I'd say you shouldn't. Otherwise, I don't see the problem. Now, since you mention relatives, how much you charge is up to you (I'd present the usual charge as any other client and then clearly tell what discount, if any, is applied) but...isn't this always the case with any activity? Whatever you do, especially since it seems you are going to take pictures of a child, I would have her sign a form. I think I have said this already several times but I have seen a few nasty cases and I really can't help but recommending this to anyone who take pictures of people. You know, you get contracted, possibly at no cost, to take these and these pictures for this and this use, you have that and that right, once they have the pictures you are not responsible for what they do with them and they are the only responsible ones should they use in some specific way which is against the law or was explicitly forbidden in the contract (you can actually find this in a much better form in several places). Have fun.
GLF
Being told what to photograph is standard practice in professional photography. There are those who sell pieces of art, those who shoot stock (sometimes at very high level as for some nature photographers) and many other who shoot under order (I'd dare to say the vast majority). So I don't see any problem on that ground alone. However, I cannot understand if you are willing to shoot these pictures. If you think you are not comfortable doing that I'd say you shouldn't. Otherwise, I don't see the problem. Now, since you mention relatives, how much you charge is up to you (I'd present the usual charge as any other client and then clearly tell what discount, if any, is applied) but...isn't this always the case with any activity? Whatever you do, especially since it seems you are going to take pictures of a child, I would have her sign a form. I think I have said this already several times but I have seen a few nasty cases and I really can't help but recommending this to anyone who take pictures of people. You know, you get contracted, possibly at no cost, to take these and these pictures for this and this use, you have that and that right, once they have the pictures you are not responsible for what they do with them and they are the only responsible ones should they use in some specific way which is against the law or was explicitly forbidden in the contract (you can actually find this in a much better form in several places). Have fun.
GLF
Curious as to what happened.
JChrome
Street Worker
Indeed!
Well, I started to talk to the sis-in-law about my style of photography and showed her some more of my work. She responded in-kind and said "That's what I want!".
I was encouraged but didn't have much film left for the specific project. Add to it that the mommy was undeterred in telling her daughter what to do. "Don't look at the camera! Just look down the street!".
Disclaimer: My scans (as you may have seen elsewhere) are not* good. I don't take time to scan something seriously unless I want to print it.
That last one she want's printed. Not a perfect session, but with the in-laws happy, mission accomplished.