Bessa doubts...

[dogmatic]

Hi, I'm new to this forum...
I've been watching it as I was very interested in getting a Bessa R3A with the nokton 40 because I want a camera that I can take everywhere and that isn't as heavy/expensive/big as my canon eos 1dmkII. I would somehow have liked a digtal RF but the epson isn't tempting me as it's too expensive for what it is.

The thing is that reading these forums I am having enourmous doubts about getting the r3a because there seem to be real QC issues and since I haven't located a dealer where I'm at (belgium) I would be ordering either in the UK (expensive) or at B&H (cheap, but their lack of R3A stock is a bit inconveniant) which would imply quite some costs when a camera needs to be returned.
I really don't feel like taking the risk now, even though the R3A seems like a great camera with the 1.0x viewfinder and the AE... and the 40 Nokton seemed nice at first but when I see some of the pictures I am starting to be worried about the very harsh bokeh...

Does anybody (realistically) know what kind of percentage of new Bessa's and CV lenses have QC issues? Are the cases I am reading about here rare exceptions or not?
I wouldn't mind getting an M7 but as this would be my first RF camera I'd rather start with something a little less expensive...

greetings
J.

 

[StuartR]

Perhaps you could more easily find a Leica CL and 40 summicron or a Minolta CLE and 40 rokkor? It may be a bit more expensive, but you will have a very compact and useful camera with great lenses...

 

[rover]

I have had 6 very postive experiences with CV products (R, R2, R3a bodies and 21, 35/1.7 and 75mm lenses). I suspect that the early problems reported with the R were small and the result of word of mouth creating a problem. I have read complaints about rangefinder alignment with the R3a, but I have not been able to figure out if it is a serious problem, or another I knew someone who knew someone who had a problem situation. I think the stiff focusing ring of the 40 Nokton seems to be an actual issue. Problem? As far as harsh bokeh, a lens design is not a quality issue. If it does not render appealing images to your eye, that is your personal taste. Others may find them appealing. I have seen a number of images that impressed me from the Nokton, and others that didn't. I think with enough use we will hear from owners in what situations this lens excels and those in which it doesn't. I wish there was a source for real non biased testing of these products but lets face it, they are so out of the mainstream it will be a while before a Pop Photo or other publication does a technical review/test of them.

 

[GeneW]

I guess it depends as well on how highly you value a 40mm lens and 1:1 VF. The very stable Bessa R2 with a 35mm Ultron/1.7 makes quite a shooter -- and used ones pop up for sale every so often.

Gene

 

[FrankS]

Rover, is your Bessa R3a still for sale? It seems to me that Dogmatic would do well to buy a proven solid used camera such as yours to avoid the unknown quality of a new out of the box Bessa. Just a thought.

 

[rover]

It is boxed and in my car for a ride to the post office tomorrow Frank. I was thinking the same thing though had the sale not been completed.

 

[Peter]

I am a very satisfied user of Bessa R2 and the Ultron 35mm/1.7. In fact Cameraquest has 2 new ones in their inventory now if you want to buy.

 

[Huck Finn]

J, if you go to the users' forum at leica-camera.com, you'll find threads with the same kinds of quality control complaints - & these are on $3000 cameras! There is no perfect system. Think of the massive recalls that automobile companies issue periodically or the "lemons" that roll off their assembly lines. I think that it is not uncommon for early production runs of any new equipment line to show up with problems. It seems that's how they work the "bugs" out.

In my opinion, the 1.0x viewfinder is overhyped. . . . But then I don't have one. . . But really, I didn't hear any big clamor for a 1.0x magnification viewfinder before this camera came out. Users seemed very happy with their R's & R2's, whose biggest limit was their difficulty with 90 mm lenses faster than f/3.5. With the R3A, you should be able to focus a 90 about a stop faster than the CV 90/3.5. Otherwise you could already focus almost any 50 & just about everything wider than that. My guess is that Cosina saw a marketing opportunity when they produced the RD-1 with the 1.0x viewfinder for Epson, & they seized that opportunity. Since they couldn't fit 35 mm frame lines in the new finder, they found an elegant solution in the 40 framelines & a new 40/1.4 lens - something no one was clamoring for either before the R3A. Yes, the R3A allows for easier precision in focusing, but it is still a relatively short length base line compared to a standard Leica.

If you are leery of the QC of the new Bessas, the Bessa R2 is a proven product with the bugs worked out of it. As an alternative, the Rollei 35RF is virtually the same camera but with the 40 mm framelines if you prefer & also with the bugs worked out. folks have been happy taking pictures with these cameras for a few years now.

If you really like the AE of the R3A, that's another matter. If so, get the R3A. I'm sure that there are many more satisfied new R3A owners out there than those with problems. Yes, if you get a lemon, you'll have the expense & inconvenience of sending it back - but that's a lot better than the alternative. In another thread, Peter praised Photo Village in New York for its first rate packing job, which should minimize any jostling in shipping. They could be an alternative to Cameraquest or B&H for an R3A. Adorama in New York also has the R3A & I have always received purchases from them with substantial packing stuffing & without any hint of damage - & like the others, they handle refunds or exchanges no questions asked. Finally, you can wait 6 months to buy until after the bugs have been worked out & the first run off the production line has sold out.

I'd encourage you to make your choice & go ahead. Buyers who have been burned will post in greater numbers than those who are happily out shooting with their new cameras. Their experience should warn you to examine your new purchase carefully upon receipt but not to give up on the whole enterprise.

Cheers . . .

 

[aizan]

if you're thinking of a bessa rxa, you may as well consider the hexar rf. *very* well made, and about the same price.
http://www.dantestella.com/technical/hexarrf.html
http://www.dantestella.com/technical/flange.html

 

[Tim]

Well, I have had a reasonable list of CV products over the last 2 years - R, R2, 15/4, 21/4, 35/2.5, 35/1.7, 75/2.5, 90/4, Meter II, spirit level.
The only one I've had any trouble at all with is the spirit level - which cracked and leaked it's fluid after I dropped it. C'est la vie......
On the same lines, I have handled 3 R3a's - all have seemed fine.

When I was first looking at an R there were a LOT of reports of questionable quality, mostly misaligned finders - I seem to recall that one of the initial batches of R's into the states all had this problem, later traced to a pallette of the gear that had been dropped on the wharves - wonder if we're seeing something similar here? Certainly after that first lot all the R's and R2's have seemed fine.

Anyway, there seems to be a huge variance in people's reports of quality problems - would be very interesting to see if it could be tracked back to one batch.

Still, buying anything sight unseen is a bit of a lottery with packaging etc etc etc, which of course is why you need to make sure the dealer has a good return policy. Never heard anything bad about Mr Gandy in that respect.
I'm kinda lucky in that I've got the CV main dealer and a Leica dealer about 20 mins away from me - so I can go and play......... (also can be VERY dangerous!)

my .02c worth

tim

 

[peter_n]

It is certainly true that we have members here who have received "good" R3A bodies and have been happy with them. Rover for example and Stephen Faust is another.

What gave me pause was the photo of the inside of the R3A box that Finbred posted. The R3A is held in place by cardboard that had become clearly damaged by the movement of the camera in transit.

Finbred's picture

This is no way to adequately package a camera body - the body should be encased in a solid polystyrene box that is molded to fit it, just like other similarly sensitive products. I just looked inside my CV 35mm/f2.5 box. It has cardboard packaging too. The last Leica lens I bought was suspended in the box by blown aero rubber ends molded to fit the lens top and bottom - it can't move anywhere inside the box. I'm thinking that the CV packaging is just not good enough for the rough & tumble of long distance shipping. 🙁

BTW, welcome to the forum J! 🙂

 

[pukupi]

I am new to RF photography and picked up the R3a with a 40/1.4 S.C. for Christmas. The build quality is excellent and although the focus ring is stiffer than most, I find it very easy to use.

There is saying in Osaka that a happy customer tells one person while an unhappy customer tells ten and I suspect this was the case when the Bessas were first released combined with the usual condemnation of any non-Leica RF from the more passionate Leica folk.

 

[peter_n]

I am new to RF photography and picked up the R3a with a 40/1.4 S.C. for Christmas. The build quality is excellent and although the focus ring is stiffer than most, I find it very easy to use.

There is saying in Osaka that a happy customer tells one person while an unhappy customer tells ten and I suspect this was the case when the Bessas were first released combined with the usual condemnation of any non-Leica RF from the more passionate Leica folk.

Glad to hear you're a happy customer pukupi! 🙂 I read that the stiff focus ring on the Nokton gets smoother with use.

I like your saying and its certainly true that people complain quicker than they praise. Leica folk can be bad - no question, but you won't find too much of that on this forum. And its interesting that on the Leica forum on photo.net there have been posts about the increasing acceptance of CV products there by some of the Leica aficionados. So I think that the advent of the R2A/R3A has actually been looked on as a good thing this time around, but there is genuine concern about QC whether its manufacture, packing or shipping.

I don't consider myself a Leica zealot - I use a Leica body and I have two Leica lenses and one CV lens and I love them all. I have no room to be a zealot - as Huck posted above there are complaints on the Leica forum about camera bodies that cost $2700! One in particular that is very frequent is dust in the viewfinder on MPs and M7s because the finder bezel isn't cemented in properly! It shouldn't happen but it does - same with CV.

I think it just makes sense to hold off on a purchase until the bugs are ironed out these days.

 

[dogmatic]

thanks, all...

maybe i'm just going to wait a month or two to see if more horror-stories pop up but it seems like most happy customers don't post about it on forums as much as unhappy customers.

as a matter of fact i really do want AE, so it'll be the r2a or r3a for me. maybe i'll go for the r2a with a 35 and a 50 (love 50's).

j

 

[former member]

From the pictures that I have seen taken with the 40mm F1.4 Nokton the out-of-focus areas are donut shaped, like my 1950 designed Nikkor 5cm F1.4. The Nikkor was optimized for use close-up and wide-open. Something has to give. Compare that with the 5cm F1.5 Sonnar of the same period, the out-of-focus areas are much smoother BUT it was the Nikkor that had reputation for slightly higher sharpness.

I think the designers of the 40mm Nokton optimized it for sharpness wide-open. The background is harsh in the shots that I have seen posted. My 40mm F2 Summicron yields smoother backgrounds. If that is what you are after, and you can give up 1 F-Stop, you may consider it.

The Leica CL has a 0.6x finder, which you will not like if the 1x finder of the R3a appeals to you. The Leica M3 has a 0.91x finder. If you can live with a clip-on or hand-held meter, you might consider it as well. It is set up for a 50mm lens; for the 40mm lens the entire viewfinder image is close to the correct FOV.

 

[Huck Finn]

if you're thinking of a bessa rxa, you may as well consider the hexar rf. *very* well made, and about the same price.
http://www.dantestella.com/technical/hexarrf.html
http://www.dantestella.com/technical/flange.html

I agree that this is a wonderful camera - & it has AE. It's hard to find new any more although they are out there. I almost bought one, but the reason I didn't was all of the complaints about QC - & I didn't really want motorized film advance & rewind. A good example of the fact that these QC complaints are everywhere. And yet there are many, many happy Hexar RF owners out there.

I think that Peter makes some excellent points about packaging. Interesting that I found molded plastic to hold my Rollei in place in its box during shipping - much as Peter described for his Leica. I've always found B&H and Adorama excellent in this regard in the bubble type packing they've used in their shipping boxes. FWIW, here's the url for Photo Village, where the shipping box also seems to be well cushioned:

www.photovillage.com

And if you want to read the horror stories about the Bessa R when it first came out, try here:

www.camerareview.com

 

[gelmir]

It has cardboard packaging too. ... I'm thinking that the CV packaging is just not good enough for the rough & tumble of long distance shipping.

That's right, the R2 I recently bought was just packed in a really small cardboard box, which seems a little bit to thin for me.

[OT]
Besides, that box is a green one, while all other packaging I've seen were black. Have I bought a japanese version ?
[/OT]

 

[RML]

Maybe the box got sick from the ride? 😛

 

[peter_n]

LOL Remy! 😛 gelmir I've seen the green packaging on one or two CV lens boxes and I think it was a color they used to use and then they switched over to black. So I wouldn't worry too much... 🙂

 

[George S.]

I really like the 40mm focal length. Another option for an R3a buyer is to look for a Leica 40mm Summicron-C lens ( the one for the Leica CL ) on the used market. Great color, sharpness and bokeh too. That lens has it all, IMO. And much more reasonably priced than the usual Leica lens prices.