Bessa for me?

[toksuede]

To the nice and generous people of the forum,

Hello there. I'm posting for the first time and I'm afraid it's going to be on of them, "which one should I get?" posts. Which means if you're not feeling altruistic, I suggest you skip this one and go for a greener pasture, which hopefully will be the next thread. But in case you do feel like giving a helping thought or three, please read on.

I'm a professional sports photographer doing my thing in Europe. So, I do know a bit about photography, but unfortunately, I haven't been lucky with RF. My first one was a Contax G2 and I liked it a lot. But stupidity does strike more than twice in life and I sold it to buy one of them the Nikon DSLRs. Oh the pain. But it was necesssity over having fun back then. I haven't attempted to go RF since then, which brings me to the main course of the evening.

For some reason, I decided that I would like to start shooting film again for leisure purposes, but my Nikon F3 is way too heavy to lug around on a day to night basis. I don't want an old M3 which could probably be had for about 54 times the price of the latest Bessa. I am planning to start with the following:

-One Bessa R body
-One Wide Angle lens

I do like the wideangle look and since I have no desire to go anything over 50mm, I would like to ask you which one of the bodies and lens I should get. After reading a lot of the posts here as well as camera questing for a bit, I do think the R4A with the 21/4 P Color-Skopar, 25/4 P Color-Skopar, or 28/1.9 Aspherical Ultron. In my mind, I feel that the f/4 is a bit slow, but then maybe it's different with RF. I've got no idea.

Oh, I'm planning this to be an all rounder, day or night, rain or shine, I want to take it everywhere and just shoot like I did back in the old old days.

By the way, I don't quite understand what the major advantage is to be had by going mechanical instead of electric. Better viewfiner indicators? Apparently less clunk from the shutter? But why wouldn't anyone want to shoot without aperture priority?

Please agree/disagree with me as much as you want. You guys know more about this than me and I'm planning to buy my new set at the end of the year in Japan.

Actually, I really can't wait. 🙂

I thank you very much in advance.

 

[Revolucion Artistico]

I have the 21 CS and for the most part if you have a steady hand and use faster films for inside or low light the f4 is not really a problem, I would definetly recommend it. As far as the AE vs. Mech discussion, the biggest advantage for me is not having to worry about your battery dying and not being able to use the camera. Why not carry spares you ask? Sure. Of course as long as it doesn't happen just as your about to take an important picture, or my favorite, I could have sworn I put those batteries in the bag. But I do have to say I love my CLE.

 

[back alley]

the r4 would be a good choice for wide angle work, the finder is very nice and the framelines are great and mean that you can leave the external finders at home.
i would stay away from the excellent 28/1.9 lens but only because i think it would block the finder a bit.
i f i were to start with only one wide lens it would be the 25/4 p lens.
i like the 25 fov and it's really only a step closer to get to the 28 fov.
it would be a light small package.

i went for the r4m because i have the ae zeiss ikon already and liked the idea of forcing myself to shoot in manual mode and because i wouldn't have to worry about battery dependency in the frigid winters here in western canada.
joe

 

[Jason Sprenger]

Given your requirements, perhaps a Bessa R4a and a Zeiss ZM 25/2.8 would serve.

The CV lens will be more compact and significantly less expensive but not fast enough to be what I'd consider an all round lens if you intend to capture interior shots w/o flash. But compactness does lend itself to being more easily carried. Outdoors during the day, f4 is usually plenty to my mind.

From most reports, the ZM 25/2.8 is top notch, if you can swing the price tag, which much less than almost all of the Leica line up.

When I go for the wide angle look, I use the CV 21/4 and am happy with the result but then I only rarely go wider than 35mm.

Regarding the camera, I agree, the R4a would have a 25mm frameline in the viewfinder which would spare you from having to use an accessory finder. And the R4a would give the option of auto exposure which is useful. You do risk being dead-in-the-water if your batteries are exhausted or cold, but it sounds like the benefit would be worth the risk to you.

 

[gb hill]

-One Bessa R body
-One Wide Angle lens

I do like the wideangle look and since I have no desire to go anything over 50mm, I would like to ask you which one of the bodies and lens I should get. After reading a lot of the posts here as well as camera questing for a bit, I do think the R4A with the 21/4 P Color-Skopar, 25/4 P Color-Skopar, or 28/1.9 Aspherical Ultron. In my mind, I feel that the f/4 is a bit slow, but then maybe it's different with RF. I've got no idea. Quote


The bessa R doesn't have the frame lines to support thoes wide lenses. 35mm framelines are as wide as the R has. The 35/2.5 color skopar is a fabulous lens. This is what I use. If you wan't to shoot wider than 35mm then I would really think about the R4 which has the supporting framelines.

 

[toksuede]

I have the 21 CS and for the most part if you have a steady hand and use faster films for inside or low light the f4 is not really a problem, I would definetly recommend it. As far as the AE vs. Mech discussion, the biggest advantage for me is not having to worry about your battery dying and not being able to use the camera. Why not carry spares you ask? Sure. Of course as long as it doesn't happen just as your about to take an important picture, or my favorite, I could have sworn I put those batteries in the bag. But I do have to say I love my CLE.

Thanks for the reply. The F3 is attached to the 24mm permanently and I would like to experiment with even a wider one in 21, but I am a tad worried that f4 will be slow as the 24mm I have is a 2.8...

 

[toksuede]

the r4 would be a good choice for wide angle work, the finder is very nice and the framelines are great and mean that you can leave the external finders at home.
i would stay away from the excellent 28/1.9 lens but only because i think it would block the finder a bit.
i f i were to start with only one wide lens it would be the 25/4 p lens.
i like the 25 fov and it's really only a step closer to get to the 28 fov.
it would be a light small package.

i went for the r4m because i have the ae zeiss ikon already and liked the idea of forcing myself to shoot in manual mode and because i wouldn't have to worry about battery dependency in the frigid winters here in western canada.
joe

Again, thank you. I was quite intrigued with the 28/1.9 as it is 1/2 stop faster than my 28/2.8. How much of the viewfinder will it block? 25/4p does look very good and if the 28/1.9 obscures a lot of the viewfinder, I amy just go for that. As for the R4M versus the R4A, I guess people have their preference. I shall keep an extra pair of battery in my wallet at any given time...

 

[toksuede]

Given your requirements, perhaps a Bessa R4a and a Zeiss ZM 25/2.8 would serve.

The CV lens will be more compact and significantly less expensive but not fast enough to be what I'd consider an all round lens if you intend to capture interior shots w/o flash. But compactness does lend itself to being more easily carried. Outdoors during the day, f4 is usually plenty to my mind.

From most reports, the ZM 25/2.8 is top notch, if you can swing the price tag, which much less than almost all of the Leica line up.

When I go for the wide angle look, I use the CV 21/4 and am happy with the result but then I only rarely go wider than 35mm.

Regarding the camera, I agree, the R4a would have a 25mm frameline in the viewfinder which would spare you from having to use an accessory finder. And the R4a would give the option of auto exposure which is useful. You do risk being dead-in-the-water if your batteries are exhausted or cold, but it sounds like the benefit would be worth the risk to you.

Thanks one more time. The ZM 25/2.8 does sound fantastic, but then 800 bucks? Can't swing that one. 21/4p is starting to warm up to me. Yes, R4A is it for me.

 

[toksuede]

-One Bessa R body
-One Wide Angle lens

I do like the wideangle look and since I have no desire to go anything over 50mm, I would like to ask you which one of the bodies and lens I should get. After reading a lot of the posts here as well as camera questing for a bit, I do think the R4A with the 21/4 P Color-Skopar, 25/4 P Color-Skopar, or 28/1.9 Aspherical Ultron. In my mind, I feel that the f/4 is a bit slow, but then maybe it's different with RF. I've got no idea. Quote


The bessa R doesn't have the frame lines to support thoes wide lenses. 35mm framelines are as wide as the R has. The 35/2.5 color skopar is a fabulous lens. This is what I use. If you wan't to shoot wider than 35mm then I would really think about the R4 which has the supporting framelines.

Thank you for the last time. I would have written all the replies back in one post, but then to be able to look at the posts in quote mode seemed easier. Anyhow, 35mm is a bit too close for me and I'm now leaning towards the 21/4p with R4A. I'm not terribly sure if f/4 will do the job and I'm sure there has to be a lens between the 21-28mm range with f/3.5 and f/2.8. Does anyone know if these things actually exist? If so, would it be in the same price range as the 21/4p?

 

[oscroft]

I'll add another vote for the R4A. I have one, and it is likely to have my CV 21/4 lens on it almost permanently. The viewfinder is superb. And I also have the 25/4 and 28/3.5 lenses, which I will use on it. As others have said, no other Bessa has framelines wider than 35mm, so you'd need to use an accessory viewfinder with them. Having had my R4A for only a few weeks, I have to say it strikes me as such an obvious camera to make that I'm surprised Leica never had the idea (back in the M6 days, maybe an M6W rather than spending their time knocking out inane M6 commemoratives for every royal nonentity they could think of?)

As for whether f/4 is sufficient for RF use, the only thing that matters is if you actually shoot wider than that - one reason for using faster lenses with SLRs is to make the viewfinder image as bright as possible, but that's not relevant with an RF.

And manual/mechanical vs auto/electronic? I've always been a bit hung-up on not being reliant on batteries (mainly from my days traveling in places where you couldn't possibly buy any). But in reality I've never actually been stuck anywhere with dead batteries and no spares. The R4A takes a couple of SR44/357 batteries, and even a box of ten of those takes up hardly any room in a camera bag.

 

[skibeerr]

Something completly different,

the Hexar af, fixed 35mm f2 superb lens, quality like a older type summicron, choise of program, ae and manual with af as an extra (dis)advantage. And to be had second hand for about 200 euro. 250$.
You also win a stop with its leafshutter and it is very quit.
Check out this gem at Dante Stella or Steven Gandy's site.

 

[toksuede]

I'll add another vote for the R4A. I have one, and it is likely to have my CV 21/4 lens on it almost permanently. The viewfinder is superb. And I also have the 25/4 and 28/3.5 lenses, which I will use on it. As others have said, no other Bessa has framelines wider than 35mm, so you'd need to use an accessory viewfinder with them. Having had my R4A for only a few weeks, I have to say it strikes me as such an obvious camera to make that I'm surprised Leica never had the idea (back in the M6 days, maybe an M6W rather than spending their time knocking out inane M6 commemoratives for every royal nonentity they could think of?)

As for whether f/4 is sufficient for RF use, the only thing that matters is if you actually shoot wider than that - one reason for using faster lenses with SLRs is to make the viewfinder image as bright as possible, but that's not relevant with an RF.

And manual/mechanical vs auto/electronic? I've always been a bit hung-up on not being reliant on batteries (mainly from my days traveling in places where you couldn't possibly buy any). But in reality I've never actually been stuck anywhere with dead batteries and no spares. The R4A takes a couple of SR44/357 batteries, and even a box of ten of those takes up hardly any room in a camera bag.

Thanks. I'm planning to most likely not shoot anything wider than 21mm as anything wider will be too wide. I just thougth f/4 will limit me in terms of indoor/dark alley way situations where it will help me to squeeze one last stop. In the old days of digital, you can swap ISO like it's 2007, but then when it comes to film, I'm going to be stuck for 36 frames with one speed. Actually, that is quite mind blowing. Yes, the R4A and the 21/4p sounds like the good combo, unless the 28/1.9 is not going to obstruct my viewfinder as much as the previous poster stated.

Just checked the price in Japan for the R4A and it's 87,000 yen. That's right, it's 705 dollars. 🙂

 

[skibeerr]

About battery's, it is more the "idea" of falling on empty, a reserve should be taken along, yust as important as film. And if it is realy cold oils and lubricants get stif and your mechanical camera dies to. ( Always keep either under your jacket.)
And what about an accurate electric shutter.

I love purely mechanical camera's and own a few but this is for the love of them.
Then again on my next trek a Super Ikonta goes along ;-)

 

[toksuede]

Something completly different,

the Hexar af, fixed 35mm f2 superb lens, quality like a older type summicron, choise of program, ae and manual with af as an extra (dis)advantage. And to be had second hand for about 200 euro. 250$.
You also win a stop with its leafshutter and it is very quit.
Check out this gem at Dante Stella or Steven Gandy's site.

Sounds tempting, except for one glaring thing. It's the fixed 35mm thing. If I want to go crazy and try to change the lens... I'm stuck with the 35mm. I could use my legs but sometimes I'd like to change the lens. Although 200 Euros is quite nice, it will leave me with no flexibility whatsoever. By the way, I just read in a Japanese Camera Blog that Cosina is coming out with a C Biogon T* 4.5/21 ZM. But it's quite pricey as 110,250 Yen.

 

[cpborello]

Thank you for the last time. I would have written all the replies back in one post, but then to be able to look at the posts in quote mode seemed easier. Anyhow, 35mm is a bit too close for me and I'm now leaning towards the 21/4p with R4A. I'm not terribly sure if f/4 will do the job and I'm sure there has to be a lens between the 21-28mm range with f/3.5 and f/2.8. Does anyone know if these things actually exist? If so, would it be in the same price range as the 21/4p?

There are Canon 28/2.8 and 28/3.5 LTM lenses available that may be worth your while looking into. The added bonus is that these lenses are very small. [Figure $200 or so for the 28/3.5 and likely $300 or more for the 28/2.8, but don't quote me on these prices]

Chris

 

[mfogiel]

You haven't written anything about wearing glasses, so I assume you don't need them, but be warned that with glasses you can barely see the 25mm framelines on the R4.
I have bought the R4A for the same kind of purpose, but I have opted for a 28mm solution. The camera is plenty sufficient for shooting in any condition.

I would recommend a couple of things:
-before buying whatever lens, put it on the camera, and take a look through the viewfinder to see if you are comfortable with how much it blocks your frame. The Bessa is light and compact, but the distance between the viewfinder and the lens is shorter than in a Leica or ZI, so the lenses intrude more
-if you do not need to change the film while you run, get a Luigi half case to protect the body, because I find that I end up banging it around a lot against the doors, etc, and Bessa is not Leica - the paint bears the brunt of the hits, not to mention that this way you protect the camera a bit more against the rangefinder misalignement

Finally, if you should consider using a 28mm lens, before buying the body, by all means take a look at the Zeiss Ikon - the viewfinder will send you right to heaven, and the longer rangefinder base plus longer distance between the lens and viewfinder wiindow make all the vignetting problems less painful.

 

[toksuede]

You haven't written anything about wearing glasses, so I assume you don't need them, but be warned that with glasses you can barely see the 25mm framelines on the R4.
I have bought the R4A for the same kind of purpose, but I have opted for a 28mm solution. The camera is plenty sufficient for shooting in any condition.

I would recommend a couple of things:
-before buying whatever lens, put it on the camera, and take a look through the viewfinder to see if you are comfortable with how much it blocks your frame. The Bessa is light and compact, but the distance between the viewfinder and the lens is shorter than in a Leica or ZI, so the lenses intrude more
-if you do not need to change the film while you run, get a Luigi half case to protect the body, because I find that I end up banging it around a lot against the doors, etc, and Bessa is not Leica - the paint bears the brunt of the hits, not to mention that this way you protect the camera a bit more against the rangefinder misalignement

Finally, if you should consider using a 28mm lens, before buying the body, by all means take a look at the Zeiss Ikon - the viewfinder will send you right to heaven, and the longer rangefinder base plus longer distance between the lens and viewfinder wiindow make all the vignetting problems less painful.

No, I don't wear glasses when I do shoot, but I do wear contacts. The only time when I shoot for work that I had to wear glasses was when my eyes were the wicked spell of conjuntivitis.

Thank you for letting me know about the lens obstruction thing. Since my knowledge of RF is next to nothing, I didn't even understand why a lens would obstruct a viewfinder. I'm trying not to think SLR, but RF from now on. But the problem is, even if I wanted to test drive the 28/1.9 or the 21/4p, I have no idea where in Paris (I live here) I can get my hands on. If it obscures that much of the viewfinder, I really should go with the 21/4p or 25/4p.

I didn't think choosing a lens would be this difficult...

 

[Avotius]

I highly suggest you look at an r4a and a Zeiss 25mm lens. The lens is fast, sharp, and just all around excellent. The body is good too, and it has that all important aperture priority mode which I love on my r2a, and you will have framelines for the 25mm lens and all that good stuff.

That said the 25mm lens is not all that small, in rangefinder terms at least, it will make the camera a bag camera not a pocket camera, if you really want a pocket camera check out one of the new P wideangle lenses by voigtlander.

 

[toksuede]

You haven't written anything about wearing glasses, so I assume you don't need them, but be warned that with glasses you can barely see the 25mm framelines on the R4.
I have bought the R4A for the same kind of purpose, but I have opted for a 28mm solution. The camera is plenty sufficient for shooting in any condition.

I would recommend a couple of things:
-before buying whatever lens, put it on the camera, and take a look through the viewfinder to see if you are comfortable with how much it blocks your frame. The Bessa is light and compact, but the distance between the viewfinder and the lens is shorter than in a Leica or ZI, so the lenses intrude more
-if you do not need to change the film while you run, get a Luigi half case to protect the body, because I find that I end up banging it around a lot against the doors, etc, and Bessa is not Leica - the paint bears the brunt of the hits, not to mention that this way you protect the camera a bit more against the rangefinder misalignement

Finally, if you should consider using a 28mm lens, before buying the body, by all means take a look at the Zeiss Ikon - the viewfinder will send you right to heaven, and the longer rangefinder base plus longer distance between the lens and viewfinder wiindow make all the vignetting problems less painful.

I just checked the Zeiss Ikon. Stupid me, I always thought Zeiss Ikon had something to do with Leica, but now I know they are a separate company altogether. I wonder how I dont' forget to breathe sometimes.

Price wise, it's about 200 USD more than the R4A, but is the performance that much different? I'm assuming the viewfinder is larger for the Zeiss Ikon. But I'm also assuming that the difference between the Zeiss Ikon and the R4A viewfinder isn't worth 200 USD. I guess it will depend on whom I ask...

And the Zeiss Ikon doesn't have the frame line for the 21mm...

 

[mfogiel]

Try to see if you find something in the shops, where you could try things out before committing :
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Fpw9