Bessa R4 vs Ikon

[giellaleafapmu]

Dear folks,

I immagined this to be a very recurrent thread but I cound not find any discussion in the forum, so I post the question again, if the problem is in the search engine and there are threads around I appreciate also a link to an old discussion instead of answers.

I am not a real RF guy but I like to use one from time to time, I now have a Leica M4, a CL, a IIIg an a fixed lens Hexar but I sort of got annoied by unreliable old cameras like the CL (which once again broke on me recently) and I find my IIIg most of the time in the bottom of a drawer, so I am planning to stay only with the M4 and the Hexar and convert the other two into a new M-mount camera.

Any recent M seems too expensive for the casual use I give to the camera so I am planning on either a Bessa R4 (a or m to be decided) or a Ikon. I had them both in my hands sometimes but I was not interested in buying when that happened one and really cannot remember the details too well, I remember that both were ok, that I sort of liked the Ikon more and...that's the question: what are really the differences (besides the framelines about which I don't care too much because I use mostly 35mm and 50mm lenses)?

Both are made by Cosina, both have a vertical shutter, both get good reviews...still the Ikon costs about the double than the Bessa, is just the name or is there a real difference in quality? Somewere I read the light meter is clearer in the Bessa, I honestly don't even remember how they looked in the viewfinder but I am sure someone here does...

Anything more to consider?

Thanks in advance!

GLF

 

[mfogiel]

So, if you use the 35 and 50mm lenses the most, and you want an objective judgement about these cameras, in one word - Zeiss Ikon is the one to choose. It is more solidly built and more pleasant to use than Bessas, it has the best VF around, with dedicated frames for the 35 and 50mm lenses (R4 35 and 50 mm frames are a stretch, it is an ideal RF for the wide angles) It has the longest rf base and focuses with utmost precision even very fast lenses, the shutter has the same metal mechanism, but it is more silent, the camera is bigger, so it does not get so much obstruction in the VF from bigger lenses, the AE exposure works very well and the compensation button has a 30 sec memory for recomposing the shot. The Ikon benefits from a half case with grip for protection and handling, as its leatherette is not as rugged as that of a Leica. If you use an M4, the ikon will be like a modern version of that camera, better in every way, apart in the fondling department, so if this would be a problem, you could want to have a look at an 0.85x M7, which has an ideal VF for the 50mm lens.

 

[peter_n]

The Bessa R4 is really for very wide (21mm) to wide (35mm) lenses. A 50mm lens on the R4 is marginal for many users.

 

[JHenry]

I began my rangefinder experience with a R4A. I'd only ever used SLRs before, and didn't want to sink more money into the testing the waters until I knew I would enjoy the temperature. Sounds like you aren't in the same boat.

Turned out I really enjoy the experience, and so I purchased a Zeiss Ikon a few weeks ago. I love it.

Both are good cameras. But, since I only have 35mm and 50mm lenses, I now choose to use the ZI almost exclusively. Here is what I like about the ZI:

- The 35mm and 50mm frame lines are each displayed in the viewfinder with no other frame line set. I like the clean, uncluttered look this gives when I'm composing.

- The ZI is a bit bigger and heavier (though not much heavier), and I like that since I have bigger hands.

- The ZI is more solid feeling than the R4A (again, personal opinion on how it feels when I'm holding it).

- The ZI viewfinder is bigger and brighter than the R4A. Yes, I occasionally lose the RF patch, as people have commented endlessly on. About half the time I lose it it's because my eye has moved from the center of the viewfinder; the other half of the time is because my right index finger ends up covering the RF window (yes, I'm still learning).

- I find that the rewind crank on my R4A occasionally comes out of the rewind knob, and stops the ability to advance the film to the next frame. The ZI, with the rewind crank on the bottom does not that this R4A issue.

What I really like about the R4A is the amount of space outside the frame lines when using the 35mm and 50mm frame lines. That space allows me to see what else is going on around me without taking my eye from the viewfinder. But, this, and the ability to use 21 and 25mm lenes without an external viewfinder are the (in my opinion) only ways the R4A beats the ZI, other than price.

I like the ZI so much that I am planning to buy a second body to use instead of using my R4A as the second body. The question becomes: when I get a 21mm lens, will I put it on the R4A (with internal frame lines) or use an external viewfinder on the ZI??....will know later this year.

All the best,

Jeff

 

[thegman]

I had a feel of an R3A before eventually purchasing an Ikon, I found focusing tricky with the R3A, the Ikon seems much easier with it's long baseline. The Ikon is glorious to look at, the R3A is nice, but not in the same league as far as appearance goes.

That said, the R3A I think is great value and everyone who owns one seems to like it.

 

[giellaleafapmu]

Mmmmh, four out of four seem to point to the Ikon, I guess that will be it...

GLF

 

[hannexx]

I also own both the ZI and the R4A. I would also say that you can't go wrong with either, but the Ikon will feel a bit nicer if you compared them side by side. The shutter is slightly "tighter" and the CLE-inspired rewind crank on the bottom is easier to use. I prefer the R4A's bottom shutter speed readout to the Ikon's vertical readout on the left because it's easier to see in some conditions, but this doesn't really have any effect on shooting most of the time.

That being said, aesthetics and "feel" aside, the practical question to ask is what focal lengths you like to shoot. The R4A is great for 28mm and wider, but i find the 35mm framelines to be a tad tight even. If you like 50mm, this is not the camera for you.

You mentioned that framelines don't matter since you like 35mm and 50mm, but in fact, this really point you in the direction of an Ikon (or R2A). The magnification will suit you better and you will find composition (and possibly focusing) more enjoyable.

 

[Fenwick]

I used the Ikon and found the readout to be a real pain in bright outside light (almost impossible to see in those conditions) it was the reason I ended up selling it

 

[julianphotoart]

I have both an R4A and a ZI.

Meter read-out on R4A is easier to read. R4A is cheaper. R4A, to me, seems to meter just as accurately as ZI. R4A can fit a VC rapidwinder whereas ZI cannot. ZI has substantially longer RF base-length so presumably better success rate for in-focus shots. ZI strikes me as having somewhat better build quality. ZI also seems to have somewhat quieter shutter. ZI has frame-line preview lever, and no need to manually turn dial for proper frame-lines. ZI has HUGE eyepiece to look through so great if you wear glasses (is that called "eye relief"?). ZI looks way more cool -- perhaps too sleek and cool for some. Rewind cranks, for my big fingers, are equally troublesome.

 

[sojournerphoto]

I have two ZIs, and R4m and an R2m and the ZIs are the cameras I choose to use. Even with the XM 25/2.8 I prefer the ZI and external finder because too much of the R4m finder gets blocked by the lens (it's apparently OK with the CV skopars).

In use all are good cameras, and the Rxm meter readout is much easier to read than the ZI's with glasses, but the ZI is such a joy to use that I will probably sell the Bessa's shortly. The better experience comes from the outstanding viewfinder, the feel of the body (not a negatice about the Bessa's but a positive about the ZI) and the focusing with the long ebl.

Mike

 

[wgerrard]

- I find that the rewind crank on my R4A occasionally comes out of the rewind knob, and stops the ability to advance the film to the next frame. The ZI, with the rewind crank on the bottom does not that this R4A issue.

Glad to see this happens to others. First time it happened to me I freaked, thinking the thing was busted.

I've not used a ZI, but have a few years experience with an R4M, which I like. It was my first venture into RF-dom, so cost was an issue. Knowing what I know now, I find the ZI very tempting, but I'm not sure I've got a really good reason to let go of the Bessa.

I've read here that the ZI's exposure readout is not as fine grained as the Bessa's, if that is important to you.

Note: I use a Nokton 50/1.5 and a Zeiss XM Planar 50/2 on the Bessa and haven't really had any focusing problems.

 

[Sam N]

The only reason to get a Bessa over an Ikon is if you want a viewfinder not offered in the Ikon (1:1 of R3 or wide from R4) or if you insist on a manual shutter (R2m, R3m, R4m). Price could also be an issue, but the Ikon is a pretty good deal IMO.

I've read here that the ZI's exposure readout is not as fine grained as the Bessa's, if that is important to you.

I've had an R3a and as far as I can tell the readout is the same as that on my Ikon except it's horizontal rather than vertical. I prefer the Ikon's readouts since they're much easier to see in bright conditions and the AE lock is much easier to use.

 

[Tom A]

The R4M/A is a wide-angle camera. Anything longer than the 35 is an emergency situation!
The ZI has the best rangefinder made. I have both (multiples of them!) and the R4M is always along in my bag, usually with a 21, sometimes with a 28.
The ZI comes into play when I know I am shooting a, to me, non-standard film as it has a very good AE system. The large finder also is very good with lenses like the Nokton 50f1.1 or the ZM 50f1.5 Sonnar,
As for reliability - both the R4's and the ZI's get a lot of use. I had a rewind crank "cracking" on the ZI, but it was replaced under warranty. The R4M's have never given me any grief - except that rewind crank jamming a couple of times. My 2nd R4M is a later version and the problem seems to have been solved.
If you are going to be using 35/50 as your main lenses - go for the ZI. If you are planning to go wide later one - you can always add a R4 at that time. The finder blockage with a 21f2.8 or even the new 21f1.4 Summilux (not a small lens!) it is vastly overblown.