jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
Fellow RFFer Alan Ampolsk and I burned some midnight oil last night researching this, and I thought we'd better warn y'all right away:
As best I can determine, right now none of the Adobe imaging applications -- Photoshop CS2, Adobe Camera Raw, Adobe Bridge, or Adobe DNG Converter -- are natively able to open the raw file format generated by the R-D 1s! (Photoshop will open them using the latest Epson plug-in, but not using ACR.)
Alan has an R-D 1s and had posted here yesterday, wondering why Bridge and ACR wouldn't recognize his raw files. Alan uses Windows XP and I use MacOS X, so I volunteered to try to open a couple of them in case the problem was just with his Windows software installation. However, I couldn't open them either.
Just to make sure, I put Alan's test files side-by-side in the same folder as some of my original R-D 1 raw files. All the Adobe apps are fine with my files, but can't see Alan's at all. (Incidentally, he did NOT use the new capability of saving raw+JPEG files, so that can't be the culprit.)
Bridge refuses to render preview images of the "s" files; Photoshop won't open them, reporting a parsing error; DNG Converter says they're not eligible files. I also tried Adobe Lightroom Beta 2; it will show the 160x120 JPEG thumbnail image, but won't interpret the raw image and won't let you apply any Develop-module adjustments to it.
What this means is that as of this moment, the only way you can deal with raw files from the R-D 1s is to use Epson's newly-updated (v1.21) PhotoRAW application or Photoshop plug-in. That's okay for working with individual files, but is a real headache from the standpoint of managing large numbers of images. (For example, my standard procedure for handling raw files from either my R-D 1 or Nikon is to convert them to Adobe DNG format, and then use Bridge to view and manage them; that wouldn't work with R-D 1s files.)
What's particularly worrisome here is that I know a lot of us have been looking forward to the promised June 1 release (on Epson UK, at least) of the firmware update to apply some/most/all of the "s" improvements to the original R-D 1. If applying the firmware update also means switching to the new raw-file format, we all might find ourselves with no options other than Epson for managing our files! (And without the ability to back up and restore the old firmware, applying the update would be a one-way trip.)
Meanwhile, if you're really into paranoia, try this on your Pianola: Suppose that Adobe decides that since the R-D 1s is basically a lame-duck model that probably will never top 5,000 units, and isn't even sold officially in the US, there's no point in bothering to update DNG Converter and ACR to handle its raw format?!?!?
I can understand why the improvements Epson added to the "s" might require a change to the raw file format.
But if you're thinking of bagging the firmware update and applying it, you may want to proceed with caution! I know this has certainly made me think twice about what I'm going to do when the update appears on Epson UK on June 1 (assuming that really happens...)
As best I can determine, right now none of the Adobe imaging applications -- Photoshop CS2, Adobe Camera Raw, Adobe Bridge, or Adobe DNG Converter -- are natively able to open the raw file format generated by the R-D 1s! (Photoshop will open them using the latest Epson plug-in, but not using ACR.)
Alan has an R-D 1s and had posted here yesterday, wondering why Bridge and ACR wouldn't recognize his raw files. Alan uses Windows XP and I use MacOS X, so I volunteered to try to open a couple of them in case the problem was just with his Windows software installation. However, I couldn't open them either.
Just to make sure, I put Alan's test files side-by-side in the same folder as some of my original R-D 1 raw files. All the Adobe apps are fine with my files, but can't see Alan's at all. (Incidentally, he did NOT use the new capability of saving raw+JPEG files, so that can't be the culprit.)
Bridge refuses to render preview images of the "s" files; Photoshop won't open them, reporting a parsing error; DNG Converter says they're not eligible files. I also tried Adobe Lightroom Beta 2; it will show the 160x120 JPEG thumbnail image, but won't interpret the raw image and won't let you apply any Develop-module adjustments to it.
What this means is that as of this moment, the only way you can deal with raw files from the R-D 1s is to use Epson's newly-updated (v1.21) PhotoRAW application or Photoshop plug-in. That's okay for working with individual files, but is a real headache from the standpoint of managing large numbers of images. (For example, my standard procedure for handling raw files from either my R-D 1 or Nikon is to convert them to Adobe DNG format, and then use Bridge to view and manage them; that wouldn't work with R-D 1s files.)
What's particularly worrisome here is that I know a lot of us have been looking forward to the promised June 1 release (on Epson UK, at least) of the firmware update to apply some/most/all of the "s" improvements to the original R-D 1. If applying the firmware update also means switching to the new raw-file format, we all might find ourselves with no options other than Epson for managing our files! (And without the ability to back up and restore the old firmware, applying the update would be a one-way trip.)
Meanwhile, if you're really into paranoia, try this on your Pianola: Suppose that Adobe decides that since the R-D 1s is basically a lame-duck model that probably will never top 5,000 units, and isn't even sold officially in the US, there's no point in bothering to update DNG Converter and ACR to handle its raw format?!?!?
I can understand why the improvements Epson added to the "s" might require a change to the raw file format.
But if you're thinking of bagging the firmware update and applying it, you may want to proceed with caution! I know this has certainly made me think twice about what I'm going to do when the update appears on Epson UK on June 1 (assuming that really happens...)
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
PS -- If anyone else wants to experiment with other raw-format software and is willing to report their results back to the group, I've got a couple of Alan's files and one of my original R-D 1 reference files on my dot-Mac iDisk. PM me and I'll send you the info about how to download them so you can try what you've got.
Alan_Ampolsk
On the street...
Thanks -- I guess I'm glad to find out there wasn't a problem with my system or installation. But can't say I'm happy with the findings. For myself, I don't shoot in such high volume that I can't manage individual conversions. But on the other hand, I do shoot in somewhat high volume -- I do mainly street work. And since I have a more-than-full-time non-photography job, time is short and convenience counts. That's mainly why I've been a jpeg shooter to date. Might consider trying the R-D1s on jpegs... or just working through the RAWs in Epson one at a time. Will keep you posted. In the meantime, I'll stay tuned for anything that anyone can find out about the .ERFs and compatibility issues.
Best,
Alan
Best,
Alan
plummerl
Well-known
Have you tried Pixmantec's RawShooter (Essentials and Premium)? I don't have the R-D1, but they claim support for the R-D1 raw format. Essentials is free (and very nice). I can try one of your files if you like.
larry
larry
PaulN
Monkey
jlw said:
Thanks for the research! You should provide a copy of the RD-1S files to the author of 'dcraw'. He is the fellow that is making the open source RAW conversion engine that is used in almost every RAW conversion program out there. If I'm interpreting the website correctly, even Photoshop borrowed some code in the beginning. The URL is:
http://www.cybercom.net/~dcoffin/dcraw/
As for Adobe supporting the R-D1s, I think they are going to. Maybe I am optimistic, but they've supported us this far I'm sure they are going to go the distance. Send them a file to play around with.
From what I've gathered, RAW files usually follow the TIFF standard to some degree, but make minor changes as to where in the file they store the data. It may not be that hard to add support to dcraw. For example, if it is searching for a "R-D1" string to decide if it can decode the file, it will have problems if it detects "R-D1S". I'd try changing the dcraw code so that it understands "R-D1S" and see what it does. You'll most likely not get the JPEG out of it if it is a RAW+JPEG, but atleast you may get a converted TIFF. Pulling out the JPEG is as simple as finding the offset of the file and copying the bites to a separate file.
If we can find out what the "magic" string of bytes is for a JPEG file, a quick shell script can be written to pull out the JPEG utilizing dd. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a solaris box at the moment, and /etc/magic isn't found on OSX. They may have moved it.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
plummerl said:
That seems to be the problem: Applications that support the original R-D 1 raw format are not supporting the R-D 1s format. I haven't tried other converter programs I have handy (Raw Developer, for example) since my big concern is about image management, not just conversion. Still, I suppose it would be nice to start building a laundry list of what works and what doesn't.
If you want to PM me, and let me know what operating system you're using, I'll send you the login and password info you'll need to download one of the test files from my iDisk.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
PaulN said:
That's a good idea. I'll try emailing the dcraw author (I've corresponded with him before, but his name escapes me at the moment) and also post something on one of the Adobe boards and see if they're interested.
I tried looking at the file headers, although I'm not an expert in this field and the only tool I had available to do it was the UNIX editor pico. The header does say "R-D 1s" rather than "R-D 1", and I thought simply the extra one-character length might be throwing off the interpreters. But deleting the "s" and resaving the file didn't help -- ACR still didn't recognize the file. So, this will have to be a job for someone with more coding knowledge than I've got.
Steve L
Established
Has anyone (that actually has an R-D1S) tried calling Adobe? or Epson, to have them call Adobe?
iUser
Established
It's not going to be an adobe issue, more like file headers from the camera. It'll need a firmware update to fix though or a massive rollout of plugins for any RAW software wishing to support the camera.
rvaubel
Well-known
jlw
Oh,Oh.... if Epson forgot to check to see if the new RAW firmware could be opened by ARC, I wonder if the R-D1s raw files can be opened by the P-2000 or P-4000. I have one if someone want to send my a file.... wait a minute, actually I think that the viewer only opens a small JPEG that is attached to the RAW file. Actually, I dont know what the hell would happen. Send me something and I'll try
Rex
Oh,Oh.... if Epson forgot to check to see if the new RAW firmware could be opened by ARC, I wonder if the R-D1s raw files can be opened by the P-2000 or P-4000. I have one if someone want to send my a file.... wait a minute, actually I think that the viewer only opens a small JPEG that is attached to the RAW file. Actually, I dont know what the hell would happen. Send me something and I'll try
Rex
plummerl
Well-known
PaulN
Monkey
I think people are getting confused. It is not Epson's fault that other 3rd party applications cannot support this new file format. It *is* a new file format, one that can support both the ERF image and a JPEG. A second firmware upgrade to change the file header from R-D1S to R-D1 will not automatically fix things. Third party software must be updated to support this new file format. Canon went through this, as well as Nikon, and a bunch of other companies. This is normal.
Epson's alternative would be to hold off releasing the R-D1s until all of the major third party applications supported an un-released camera. That would never happen. We wouldn't see the camera until the end of the year. Instead, Epson chose to release the new camera as well as new software that supports this new file format. When I bought my R-D1 a year and a half ago, I was in the exact same situation. The only software that supported the ERF format was Epson's.
Once R-D1S owners send an example file to the authors of DCRAW, I'm sure we'll see most of the lower tier raw converters support this new file format. In some cases, on the mac atleast, it may be as simple as replacing a library. If you are waiting for Adobe to support the new camera, then R-D1s owners should send mail to Adobe.. Or, as SteveL suggested, send mail to Epson asking them to petition Adobe..
Epson's alternative would be to hold off releasing the R-D1s until all of the major third party applications supported an un-released camera. That would never happen. We wouldn't see the camera until the end of the year. Instead, Epson chose to release the new camera as well as new software that supports this new file format. When I bought my R-D1 a year and a half ago, I was in the exact same situation. The only software that supported the ERF format was Epson's.
Once R-D1S owners send an example file to the authors of DCRAW, I'm sure we'll see most of the lower tier raw converters support this new file format. In some cases, on the mac atleast, it may be as simple as replacing a library. If you are waiting for Adobe to support the new camera, then R-D1s owners should send mail to Adobe.. Or, as SteveL suggested, send mail to Epson asking them to petition Adobe..
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
I just tried copying the test files to my P-2000 viewer and found that it does display the new ones and old ones equally well.
This isn't much of a surprise, since the P-2000 doesn't actually interpret raw files -- it just stores the data and displays the embedded JPEG preview image. But it's good to know that it does as much with the new ones as the old ones.
Another result just in: I've tried out Iridient's Raw Developer 1.47 (the latest version) and it does NOT recognize the "s" files.
This isn't much of a surprise, since the P-2000 doesn't actually interpret raw files -- it just stores the data and displays the embedded JPEG preview image. But it's good to know that it does as much with the new ones as the old ones.
Another result just in: I've tried out Iridient's Raw Developer 1.47 (the latest version) and it does NOT recognize the "s" files.
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Steve L
Established
Give Adobe a call - it is probably a small file format issue and can be solved quickly - it is possible that Epson hasn't communicated with them and that they don't even know to do this....or maybe you will find that they are working on it ....
That is assuming that they don't want to create a different camera profile for the r-D1s than for the old one...this would take them more time. Possibly the new noise reduction would change the defaults they select, but likely not much more.
That is assuming that they don't want to create a different camera profile for the r-D1s than for the old one...this would take them more time. Possibly the new noise reduction would change the defaults they select, but likely not much more.
rvaubel
Well-known
With regards the P-2000 viewer working with the R-D1s raw files, I was under the impression that the old ERF file system linked a real small JPG with each raw file to provide a way to view thumbnails. That was why there was only limited magnification avaiable when viewing "raw" files on the P-2000 or the LCD screen on the back of the camera. Or so I thought.
According to the Epson blurb about the new and improved model "s"
you can maginify 12X (or is it 16X). That would be a big help when pixel peeping for focus.
What about it. Ye, who is the only one with the camera, does it work?
Waiting anxiously for your response
Rex
According to the Epson blurb about the new and improved model "s"
you can maginify 12X (or is it 16X). That would be a big help when pixel peeping for focus.
What about it. Ye, who is the only one with the camera, does it work?
Waiting anxiously for your response
Rex
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
For the record, I've just posted our findings on the Adobe Camera Raw, DNG, and Lightroom user forums.
Of course, we can't be sure when (if ever) anyone from Adobe will notice, but it's a start.
If someone else wants to try contacting them in other ways, that might be a good step too -- especially somebody with an Adobe professional support contract. (We've got one at work but it's administered through another office, so I don't want to use it for a purely personal issue.)
Of course, we can't be sure when (if ever) anyone from Adobe will notice, but it's a start.
If someone else wants to try contacting them in other ways, that might be a good step too -- especially somebody with an Adobe professional support contract. (We've got one at work but it's administered through another office, so I don't want to use it for a purely personal issue.)
S
Sean Reid
Guest
I'll e-mail Thomas Knoll today. I used to be a beta tester for Camera Raw but had to stop due to time constraints. I don't think this will end up being much of a problem at all. If Thomas asks, we can get them some files. I'll also speak with Chris Breeze at Breezebrowser but I'll need to send him a sample file.
Meanwhile....the new version of PhotoRAW is much improved and I would suggest working with that for now. It's really an excellent program now.
Cheers,
Sean
Meanwhile....the new version of PhotoRAW is much improved and I would suggest working with that for now. It's really an excellent program now.
Cheers,
Sean
S
Sean Reid
Guest
Just e-mailed Thomas. I imagine this won't be a big deal at all.
Cheers,
Sean
Cheers,
Sean
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
Wow. Forget six degrees of separation. How about a new two degrees of separation for the camera world?
Ben
Ben
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S
Sean Reid
Guest
Just heard back from Thomas, he just needs a sample file. Alan or JLW, would you please e-mail me off-list and we'll try to figure something out via U-send-it or the like. I could also get this to Chris Breeze so that he could support it in BB Pro (which I use all the time).
sreid@sover.net
Cheers,
Sean
sreid@sover.net
Cheers,
Sean