paulfish4570
Veteran
amen, borge ...
BREXIT: UK members might want to consider GAS before the June 23 referendum
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Wulfthari
Well-known
Funny...the UK and France have the biggest muslim communities in Europe, but according to the leave campaign the real problem is us, the European immigrants.
That is because most of Pakistani and Arabs in England have British citizenship (even if culturally are definitely not British, or Europeans for the matter) so they vote and therefore nobody, not even Farage, can afford calling them out, they all repeat that Islam is a religion of peace etc...
On the other side Italians, Spaniards, Eastern Europeans are fair targets because we are...how to say? White I think. I have enough of hearing people of the UKIP that it's a shame that in a hospital in Coventry they all talk Italian or that a British citizen should be worried if a Lithuanian family go to leave in their neighbourhood...we never planted bombs in the tube or on buses like the "good" Muslim citizens in 2005.
paulfish4570
Veteran
good points, wulf ...
Wulfthari
Well-known
I am an European professional ( I stopped to consider myself Italian long time ago) who made his career thanks to European mobility, I started going to study in Denmark with an European grant back in 1999, then I got a master in Sweden, I worked as researcher for my PhD in London in 2005/06 (thanks to the European Marie Curie program), then when the automotive industry went downhill in Italy I got good offers from the UK and since 2013 I have been working here.
Through the years two or three American companies made me offers, John Deere even paid $1000 just to bring me to Iowa to have an interview, they wanted to hire me but the American government said no because they had finished the H1B Visas for that year.
Should the UK become like the USA or Australia for me it would be a disaster, but I think it would be worse for the Brits as let's be honest, the British Automotive Industry was bankrupted before the Europeans took over RR, JLR, Bentley etc...Ford of Europe has always been highly integrated but British Leyland was a scandal from an engineering point of view.
paulfish4570
Veteran
well, only if you were muslim, Wulf. (said with wry smile) ...
sojournerphoto
Veteran
Mmm, I think that the Japanese manufacturers have had more to do with the strong UK motor manufacturing industry (if we really need such a thing in light of climate change - Nissan's electric vehicle program excepted of course) than the europeans. RR, JLR, Bentley and Aston Martin are all small volume manufacturers in comparison. The Japanese plants are here because they can access a huge market from an effective and efficient manufacturing base. If the costs around that base become higher than thos ein europe, then there is the possiblity that over time the UK base will be eroded as the european plants catch up on efficiency. It's not inconceivable that Nissan, Honda an dToyota each support 50,000 UK jobs in their local and national economic impact.
This is of course a diversion from the main topic and w agree on the 'best way to vote'TM
Mike
rscheffler
Well-known
sojournerphoto
Veteran
Quote Calzone
'Also know that many wealthy people who are not Americans are laundering money and setting up what effectively are "bunkers" for themselves for when their home countries eventually fail. Shell companies are set up and LLC's so that properties and assets can not be confiscated by foreign governments. Of course these acquisition of hard assets and real estate mean a lot of currency conversion and currently some of the more stable currencies are the U.S. Dollar and the British Pound.
...
Part of the valuation has to do with interest rates (zero interest rates or even negative interest rates), and the perceived state of a country's economy, but that is all in relation to other countries and their respective currencies. It is all relative. The U.S. economy is not that strong, but it is doing better than the rest of the world. The British economy is looked upon in the same way as ours: not strong, but stronger than others.'
Para 1: Whoa - that's a robust claim, going far beyond the idea that the wealthy are able to align selfishness with the ability to financially protect themselves. Particularly, in the context of Americans not needing/choosing to do the same. Given the sheer scale of America's net debt, it's position as the world's reserve currency may not be all that stable and I'm not convinced that Americans have any greater claim to high moral standards than any other nation - certainly American business doesn't.
Para 2: My humble opinion is that there are many clouds gathered on the world economic stage, and that they are not gathered for good. In terms of the EU referendum, I hope that we Brits will vote to remain, if only because the problems we face are better faced together than apart.
Mike
'Also know that many wealthy people who are not Americans are laundering money and setting up what effectively are "bunkers" for themselves for when their home countries eventually fail. Shell companies are set up and LLC's so that properties and assets can not be confiscated by foreign governments. Of course these acquisition of hard assets and real estate mean a lot of currency conversion and currently some of the more stable currencies are the U.S. Dollar and the British Pound.
...
Part of the valuation has to do with interest rates (zero interest rates or even negative interest rates), and the perceived state of a country's economy, but that is all in relation to other countries and their respective currencies. It is all relative. The U.S. economy is not that strong, but it is doing better than the rest of the world. The British economy is looked upon in the same way as ours: not strong, but stronger than others.'
Para 1: Whoa - that's a robust claim, going far beyond the idea that the wealthy are able to align selfishness with the ability to financially protect themselves. Particularly, in the context of Americans not needing/choosing to do the same. Given the sheer scale of America's net debt, it's position as the world's reserve currency may not be all that stable and I'm not convinced that Americans have any greater claim to high moral standards than any other nation - certainly American business doesn't.
Para 2: My humble opinion is that there are many clouds gathered on the world economic stage, and that they are not gathered for good. In terms of the EU referendum, I hope that we Brits will vote to remain, if only because the problems we face are better faced together than apart.
Mike
sojournerphoto
Veteran
Finally, to Paulfish, I do not recognise the description of Europe you brought forwards. Yes, there are challenges in parts of our immigrant population (as indeed in our native population). There are all sorts of reasons for this, one of which is that we do all need to require that immigrants to any country accept that country's culture at some level rather than aiming to subvert it (the same would apply to me moving elsewhere of course). There is much to be done here and much more honesty required.
However, to suggest that western europe is being 'taken over' by islamists is errant nonsense with no basis in daily experience and at no stage does someone's religion (which is largely a result of their family and cultural history) mean that they should not be accepted if they are fleeing persecution or threat - i.e are a refugee. On a state scale this is Jesus' parable of the good Samaritan in action.
Just to address another concern, albeit inadequately, we know that there is an alarming proportion of the refugee asylum seeking population that is viewed as being a terror threat - the Norwegians have numbers on this - but this demonstrates the need for vigilance and review, not to simply deny asylum to those who need it.
There is a clear difference between seeking asylum and being an economic migrant (not that the latter is wrong - how many people have moved for a better job?), but even here the boundaries are blurred. And finally, the statistic do not support immigration based campaigners at all. Immigrants, globally, have been net economic contributors and analysis suggests that any impact on UK wages is minimal.
However, to suggest that western europe is being 'taken over' by islamists is errant nonsense with no basis in daily experience and at no stage does someone's religion (which is largely a result of their family and cultural history) mean that they should not be accepted if they are fleeing persecution or threat - i.e are a refugee. On a state scale this is Jesus' parable of the good Samaritan in action.
Just to address another concern, albeit inadequately, we know that there is an alarming proportion of the refugee asylum seeking population that is viewed as being a terror threat - the Norwegians have numbers on this - but this demonstrates the need for vigilance and review, not to simply deny asylum to those who need it.
There is a clear difference between seeking asylum and being an economic migrant (not that the latter is wrong - how many people have moved for a better job?), but even here the boundaries are blurred. And finally, the statistic do not support immigration based campaigners at all. Immigrants, globally, have been net economic contributors and analysis suggests that any impact on UK wages is minimal.
skibeerr
Well-known
Hi Helen,
well what can I say, I am Belgian and lived 50 of my years in the heart of Europe. So I can give you my citizen point of view.
-Free trade, I worked quit a bit over the borders without any hassle.
-The Euro, no more changing money in the EU and finally a currency that was known and accepted around the world. Against the Belgian Frank which nobody knew.
-Going on a holiday in the EU, no borders. Before when going to Italy we had 5 border controls. ( Here in OZ I know quit a few European immigrants who got a Euro passport for their Australian citizen children simply for this reason)
-For me coming from a very small country a feeling of being part of something bigger. USA citizens might understand this better.
-I will be able to retire in let's say Portugal, Roger has already taken France, and have no trouble getting my pension there or have medical care.
-And also your rights as a customer in the EU are very good. I was shocked when I first came to OZ with what retailers get away with, blatantly ignoring the law. And the ACCC (Australia's competition regulator and national consumer law champion) which behaves like a marriage counselor.
Please Helen remember the start of the EU took place 4 years before I was born in 1957 with the EEC which facilitated and regulated trade between the first 9 members. And long before the Euro there was the ECU.
Yes, the Eurozone has grown to fast, there is crazy spending like the monthly Brussels to Strasbourg move, my generation was dying to get a job in the EU because of the high pay and benefits.
And the EU is politically not really taken serious in Belgium, only Politicians who have had their career Nationally semi retire in the EU parliament.
As for refugees and immigrants no border (not even a Donald Trump size wall) will stop them. Now we will have to make choices and history will tell if we made the right ones.
Segregation, Nazism, Mc Carthy, Apartheid, Naru, White Australia, Congo.....
sojournerphoto
Veteran
Another, definitely final, thought.
A colleague has voted out against my in and yet we shar ethe same basic premise for our votes. We both hope that our preferred mode of government - sovereignty if you will - will be more effective in restricting the power imbalance whereby capital exploits labour in this, our, neoliberal world than the alternative.
Clearly, this is not a simple discussion.
A colleague has voted out against my in and yet we shar ethe same basic premise for our votes. We both hope that our preferred mode of government - sovereignty if you will - will be more effective in restricting the power imbalance whereby capital exploits labour in this, our, neoliberal world than the alternative.
Clearly, this is not a simple discussion.
fireblade
Vincenzo.
1. You are the minority.
2. Disaster? ..... no my friend. Australia is doing quite well by stopping illegals entering our beautiful island. Are we bigots and racists? I say whatever protects this country. I've had enough of the politically correct monkeys.
We don't want them....unless you are left of politics, and have no idea about reality.
If you express your opinion in a free country, the lefties call you racist, yet we are talking about a religion and not a race of people. An agenda with the ignorant is dangerous.
Next week Australia goes to the polls to elect a new government.
What the majority of this country doesn't know is that the criminals, mainly in Indonesia, are preparing many boats ready to put illegals on them, take their money, and send them our way if the Labour party (the left) win.
Australia has enough to deal with what is already here, and it won't be long when the extremists born here will raise their ugly heads....and if it does I'm out of here permanently....(i now live here for 6 months of the year).
3. With all the bad press Australia has received from the world about our border policies, our trade has never been affected, it's growing.
So the tighter Australia keeps our borders closed the better. Too beautiful of a country to be dictated to by nobodies who don't live here.
skibeerr
Well-known
AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM
Australians all let us rejoice,
For we are young and free;
We’ve golden soil and wealth for toil;
Our home is girt by sea;
Our land abounds in nature’s gifts
Of beauty rich and rare;
In history’s page, let every stage
Advance Australia Fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia Fair.
Beneath our radiant Southern Cross
We’ll toil with hearts and hands;
To make this Commonwealth of ours
Renowned of all the lands;
For those who’ve come across the seas
We’ve boundless plains to share;
With courage let us all combine
To Advance Australia Fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia Fair.
Australians all let us rejoice,
For we are young and free;
We’ve golden soil and wealth for toil;
Our home is girt by sea;
Our land abounds in nature’s gifts
Of beauty rich and rare;
In history’s page, let every stage
Advance Australia Fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia Fair.
Beneath our radiant Southern Cross
We’ll toil with hearts and hands;
To make this Commonwealth of ours
Renowned of all the lands;
For those who’ve come across the seas
We’ve boundless plains to share;
With courage let us all combine
To Advance Australia Fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia Fair.
paulfish4570
Veteran
amen, fireblade.
fireblade
Vincenzo.
Throughout my education, and then with Army cadets, i stood and sang GOD SAVE THE QUEEN.
Then the socialist had their way, and that's fine, and implemented the song you now know as the anthem.
.....and Yes, "To Advance Australia Fair".....Fair being important. Cheers.
valdas
Veteran
But speaking of Brexit, I don's see how that is an EU problem. It was a Swedish internal decision to accept such a large immigrant population and integrate (or rather not integrate) the way it was done. It was not forced by EU lawmakers or politicians. Just look at Finland. The point is - it is easy to blame EU for all local issues that were created by local politicians and to a large degree local voters who trusted them.
Wulfthari
Well-known
Yes you are correct, in previous years Sweden has been very generous (maybe too generous?) with war refugees and migrants from Middle Orient, but still this doesn't have anything to do with EU, it's not the supernational government that asked Sweden to accept all these people, especially Syrians.
So...in the end what are we really talking about?
valdas
Veteran
At times we are just venting, I guess...
citizen99
Well-known
David,
With you on the subjects vs citizens. I was just generalising.
Regards, John
citizen99
Well-known
That might be for Dr.Speth to explain in detail. But his argument pre-supposes the inevitability/scale of custom duties - assumptions always used by 'project fear'. Customs duties would be both ways; if they were significant, I would expect the bosses of Daimler-Benz, BMW, VW etc to pick up the phone to Chancellor Merkel and say 'What the **** is going on ? Sort it out !" They have more to lose than Jaguar.
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