Brisbane photographer arrested under special G20 powers

[Roger Hicks]

. . . Are they going to "man up" and support the poor who cannot secure an acceptable ID? . . .

Which is something of a separate issue -- or at least two separate issues, beginning with the question of "acceptable ID" and moving on to the difference between going about one's lawful business without harassment and voting twice.

Cheers,

R.

 

[semordnilap]

The Police Chief has NOT had his contract renewed.

In the States the Police Chief would probably be given a medal.

 

[semordnilap]

Which is something of a separate issue -- or at least two separate issues, beginning with the question of "acceptable ID" and moving on to the difference between going about one's lawful business without harassment and voting twice.

Cheers,

R.

Isn't voting part of "one's lawful business"?

Voter ID movements in the States are basically attempts to make it more difficult for poor people to vote, especially those living in urban areas, who often do not drive or own cars: the principal form of ID here is a driver's license.

Voter intimidation/disenrollment is a much bigger problem than folks voting twice because they don't have to show ID.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Isn't voting part of "one's lawful business"?

Voter ID movements in the States are basically attempts to make it more difficult for poor people to vote, especially those living in urban areas, who often do not drive or own cars: the principal form of ID here is a driver's license.

Voter intimidation/disenrollment is a much bigger problem than folks voting twice because they don't have to show ID.

Indeed it is, but voting twice isn't. I am in complete and utter agreement with the whole of your post, but there is still a big difference between setting out to vote twice and setting out to vote once. There is however no significant legal difference between setting out to take no pictures, or one picture, or two. Likewise, there is no significant legal difference between setting out to vote at all if you have pink skin or if you have brown skin.

Put it this way: I regard voting as both a right and a privilege. There is no privilege involved in taking pictures.

It's like "benefit fraud" (= "welfare fraud" in American). The actual incidence in financial terms in the UK is about 0.7%, which is pretty trivial. Of course we want to keep fraud down but equally we (or at least, the decent among us) don't want to penalize the 99.3% honest for the 0,7% dishonest. Two wrongs don't make a right, but some wrongs (e. g. intimidation/disenfranchisement) are bigger than others.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Steve Bellayr]

I was inadvertently at the G20 summit in Mexico. I photographed many of the security people. I was approached several times and told them that I was a tourist. I was never asked to show ID. Politeness will often avoid confrontation. The question as to whether do we really need these G20 Summits is an entirely different matter. Wasn't there something in history with the First World Wat and Woodrow Wilson who wanted secret treaties secretly approved to be stopped?

 

[Roger Hicks]

I have to show ID when I vote here in France, but they never look at it, because they know who I am. In other words I hand them my passport; they ignore it; I vote; and they tick my name off the list. Then again, I've very seldom been asked for ID anywhere, by anyone, even when the police ask why I'm taking pictures. Even La Migra takes one look at my skin colour; mumbles "American citizen?"; and waves me on. As I am a law-abiding sort of chap, I say "No," and you should see the reactions. Of course if I'm travelling with my wife they then want to see her ID, which is quite fun as she is an American citizen.

Cheers,

R.

 

[semordnilap]

Indeed it is, but voting twice isn't. I am in complete and utter agreement with the whole of your post, but there is still a big difference between setting out to vote twice and setting out to vote once. There is however no significant legal difference between setting out to take no pictures, or one picture, or two. Likewise, there is no significant legal difference between setting out to vote at all if you have pink skin or if you have brown skin.

Put it this way: I regard voting as both a right and a privilege. There is no privilege involved in taking pictures.

It's like "benefit fraud" (= "welfare fraud" in American). The actual incidence in financial terms in the UK is about 0.7%, which is pretty trivial. Of course we want to keep fraud down but equally we (or at least, the decent among us) don't want to penalize the 99.3% honest for the 0,7% dishonest. Two wrongs don't make a right, but some wrongs (e. g. intimidation/disenfranchisement) are bigger than others.

Cheers,

R.

Obviously we agree... If voter fraud were widespread, that would be one thing, and there's no reason for local and state governments to not investigate and prosecute real instances. But here we have another history with voting, one that is much more insidious. The law always needs to balance between, as you say, penalizing the honest and punishing the dishonest, and to weigh the costs and benefits of different approaches.

 

[Michael Markey]

Thinking about this further it strikes me that there is something in the British DNA which views the whole matter of carrying and being asked to produce ID as rather alien.

Maybe its a hangover from the last war or seeing Casablanca too many times.

As regards voter fraud , I can only remember this being suggested once and then only in the last two years.

One needs to remember that the UK is very small and doesn`t (at least yet) have the great disparities mentioned in this thread that would make having or indeed not having an ID an issue.

 

[Michael Markey]

Yep ...you`re right there 🙂

PS

I always think of it as 50 million.

 

[Sparrow]

Thinking about this further it strikes me that there is something in the British DNA which views the whole matter of carrying and being asked to produce ID as rather alien.

Maybe its a hangover from the last war or seeing Casablanca too many times.

As regards voter fraud , I can only remember this being suggested once and then only in the last two years.

One needs to remember that the UK is very small and doesn`t (at least yet) have the great disparities mentioned in this thread that would make having or indeed not having an ID an issue.

... Noel, of course, coming from a smaller province would advise one to 'vote early ... and vote often" in his part of the world ...

... and, I thought it was the great escape where the SS chap demanded his papers in that railway station anyway

 

[zauhar]

I grant you Keith that I was generalizing and that some people who protest may have other more admirable motives. But from what I have seen from around the world the majority of protesters appear to me to be what I would regard as "ferals". Lets wait and see what transpires but I would not mind betting you that there will be violence or attempts at violence, destruction of property and deliberate provocations designed to promote a strong response by authorities that allows them to pretend to be victimized. Why do I say it? Because I have seen it all before. But lets hope not.

I am sad to admit I have some people in my own family who are this way inclined and although I would say they are more in the group you admire than the other group because they are motivated by a (misguided) sense of right and wrong I still think they are nothing more than "useful idiots" for the more destructive elements who are intent on attacking the status quo and tearing it down.

I believe the status quo needs to be attacked and torn down.

I am modestly feral, but I bristle at being called a useful idiot. ;-)

 

[pete hogan]

We routinely have to show ID here when using a credit card. I guess money is different than voting.

 

[Sparrow]

These are very strong statements. I am sure you have a great heroic history in bravely fighting for the oppressed and the poor. I would be very interested in learning more about your struggles. I tried google but couldn't find anything. Maybe you can be so kind to give a short summary about your confrontations with the authorities and how many times you have been arrested, beaten, gassed... etc. That would be greatly appreciated.

... as they say 'discretion is the better part of valour' ... so I expect, as you suggest, cowardice is probably a good bit of discretion eh?

PS ... oh, and I have received all three of your qualification criteria over the years

 

[zauhar]

These are very strong statements. I am sure you have a great heroic history in bravely fighting for the oppressed and the poor. I would be very interested in learning more about your struggles. I tried google but couldn't find anything. Maybe you can be so kind to give a short summary about your confrontations with the authorities and how many times you have been arrested, beaten, gassed... etc. That would be greatly appreciated.

If you read Roger's original statement, you will see it was far from self-aggrandizing. It takes real courage to stand up to authority today, now that we live in a police state (I think that could fairly be said for both US and UK), and Roger was simply recognizing that fact.

Randy

 

[zauhar]

Meh... it has always required courage, or the willingness to find oneself in jail.

It has always depended on how much life disruption one was willing, or forced, to accept.

You can surely find no shortage of civil rights abuses from any decade of US history, but there has never been a time in my life when the OFFICIAL position was to condone torture and overturn of habeas corpus. That is new stuff. No longer some fat sheriff in a backwater town presiding over a lynching, but rather the president of the US and its attorney general denying our basic constitutional rights.

Randy

 

[Michael Markey]

I guess all is not well ...

https://netpol.org/2014/11/10/ninas-story/

 

[semordnilap]

I agree with Randy, I think it is somewhat different now. Look at Ellsberg and Snowden. Whatever the differences in their situations, Ellsberg stayed and Snowden left, with good reason.

 

[fireblade]

as long as the G20 doesn't disrupt my connecting flight on Saturday night in Brissy i'm happy...let the Illuminati and the Bilderbergers talk sh!te around a table, keep them happy😀

 

[frank-grumman]

The only US Constitutional Right that bodes a significant downside for its governmental abrogation here in the USofA is that embodied in the 2A. All the others are toothless, as it were. Example? Check out the % of rifle owners in CT who have told the CSP to "F-off" with respect to the semi-auto registration and ban passed after Sandy Hook. Me thinks that the folks who are doing that count as engaging in a major act of civil disobedience.

 

[Roger Hicks]

If you read Roger's original statement, you will see it was far from self-aggrandizing. It takes real courage to stand up to authority today, now that we live in a police state (I think that could fairly be said for both US and UK), and Roger was simply recognizing that fact.

Randy

Dear Randy,

Well, quite. But you read what I wrote. EdwardKaraa preferred to make up his own fantasy.

For what it's worth -- not much, I admit -- the last time I was stopped by the police the conversation was something like this:

Cop: We've received a complaint you may have been photographing McDonald's.

Me (smiling): Tough. (Pause). This is a public place.

Cop: Quite. But would you mind telling me, as a personal favour, what you're doing?

Me: Of course not. I'm testing some new lenses (I point to them). I write for the photographic press. In fact, if you go and talk to your colleagues in the van over by the pier, you'll find I've been talking to them too. [I had: I initiated the conversation, asking why they were there, and they were charming].

Cop: Ah, yes, of course. Thank you.

Me: You're welcome. As a matter of fact, I hadn't been photographing McDonalds. Where are they?

Cop: Over there...

And I went and took some pictures, quite ostentatiously.

No demands for ID: no unreasonable or overweening questions. Yes: a soft answer turneth away wrath (Proverbs XV:1), but neither side tried to escalate the confrontation.

One or two other confrontations have not turned out quite so well, bur there's never been either an arrest or physical violence. Of course having a law degree helps.

Cheers,

R.