Buying second hand - how used?

[andrew00]

Hey,

I'm going to be picking up an M9 at some point soon, second hand. I've seen a few already and they run the gamut from 'as new' to heavy usage where there's brassing and fading on the dials, high actuations etc.

I was wondering if anyone would suggest avoiding some of the more knackered ones, even if it'll cost a bit more?

I saw one, for example, that a) had had it's sensor done but b) had over 100k shots on it. It actually had a knocked about charm, it looked used.

However, I don't know if I should stay away because etc - aka if buying a second hand M9 is there a minimum standard I should keep to - fewer than X shots, sensor replaced etc etc?

Thanks!

 

[Steveh]

I'm interested in this from the other side of the fence as I have one I'm about to put up for sale that has a couple of scrapes to the paintwork (so isn't like one of the "as new" ones you see on Ebay) but has less than 6k actuations and a new sensor etc. so I'm wondering how to price it. Given the known sensor issues if I was buying privately now I think I'd probably go for one with the sensor replaced, or get one from a dealer where I knew I had a warranty so I could take it back if there was an issue- I'd assume dealers are now checking sensors on the CCD cameras before they take them on, but that's just a guess.

Number of actuations is a proxy for general wear and tear so I'd always be a bit wary of very high use cameras - there doesn't seem to be any need to go for one of those unless the price is a real bargain when there are so many low use ones around.

 

[ChrisLivsey]

M9 new sensor User £2000 (37,000) clicks
M9P boxed mint- £2500 (5,000 clicks)
12month warranty on both

Seems to me the differential isn't there in the pricing, yes £500 buys a decent lens, but I guess the mint,, being a P, will retain better value. IF I was buying I'd pony up the extra, as it is I am right off the M9 series. I know it has an issue, sensor, and although Leica will replace it's out of use for longer than I would wish and every month I'd be checking for the issue, not for me, but buy the best condition in your budget. With a 12 month warranty I wouldn't fret about a new sensor the new ones can go in that time frame!!

As to selling, those are dealer prices with warranty,
I would look at paying £1600 to £2,000 private sale no warranty which is probably around the dealer buy in or allows for commission.

And for the OP the camera well used with new sensor doesn't look a deal at £1,700 with a 6 month warranty IF it's the one I think
!!
£300 more buys 12 months warranty AND 70,000 less clicks !!

 

[rscheffler]

I wouldn't worry about the sensor too much, since Leica has stated they will replace it indefinitely (I guess as long as they can get it from their supplier). That said, if you narrow down your selection to a camera or two, you should test for the problem because of the inevitable inconvenience of having to deal with Leica's loooong service turnarounds. If a camera has recently had the sensor replaced, the previous owner has therefore dealt with that inconvenience.

I wonder how good/bad it is for a camera to have high actuations? Is it like a car where highway miles are supposed to be less of a concern than in-city miles? Would a camera that has had a reasonable amount of 'exercise' be better able to handle longterm use than a camera that mostly sat in a bag or on the shelf?

Perhaps actuation numbers give one a sense of security. From what I recall reading over on LUF and other sites, when there were problems with M9s, it wasn't easily correlated to higher actuation numbers. Thinking of the various cameras I've owned over the years from a variety of brands, there have been failures that would be considered premature, as well as from longer term use. My M9, since moved to back-up duty just over a year ago, is closing in on 150,000 actuations. While I wouldn't guarantee it based on experience with just one camera, a 'high use' M9 under 50,000 actuations should still serve the average Leica user for a long time.

 

[andrew00]

Thanks for the replies - Chris yes we're probably thinking of the same one.

I think I'd be happy with an M8 if I were going to stick there, but I'm actually thinking of getting an A7II to do some video down the line and maybe a film M.

In both cases having the same focal length would be good, hence looking at the M9. In that regard I'm therefore keen to limit the spending if I can, esp as an M9-P is pushing into M-240 used prices.

But it sounds like regardless folks are saying it's probably best to stay away from the really banged up ones unless it's an insane deal? This isn't, it's a good one but not zomg.

 

[SolaresLarrave]

If I were on the market for an M9 or M240 (which are the ones I'd like to buy), I'd get it from a dealer or a store, so that there's a commercial warranty. I'd hate to deal with an individual if the camera showed any problem.

Thanks for this thread, Andrew! 🙂 It helps to know in advance about the things to consider. I've been looking at some of these offered on eBay, and they range from "minty" to "used" (although not by far as used as some film Leicas also offered there). Since the sensor is guaranteed, my "concern" is the actuation number. Although, being expensive Leica bodies, I know they've been fairly well treated.

 

[Steveh]

I'm biased on this as someone about to sell a camera with a newly replaced sensor but there is the time factor to consider as rscheffler says - mine took roughly 5 months from telling Leica about the problem with the original sensor to getting it back with the new sensor, so there is some value to getting a camera where someone else has had to deal with that and you know the replacement sensor is good for a few years.

I've owned a couple of M9s and the average standard of the ones on the used market is pretty high, and average number of actuations on the ones for sale pretty low so I'd agree it's probably not worth buying a complete beater or one with a very high shutter count unless it's an amazing deal. All things being equal you probably have more risk of shutter failure, rangefinder misalignment etc with a "well used" example.

 

[jaapv]

I wouldn't call rangefinder misalignment an issue. Any competent repairperson can correct that quickly.

 

[Vobluda]

They are avoiding working with digital M cameras, they will not touch it.

I wouldn't call rangefinder misalignment an issue. Any competent repairperson can correct that quickly.

 

[thegman]

I'd be inclined to pony up for the M9P, just because it's prettier, but in terms of numbers of clicks etc. I think sometimes it can be like mileage on a car, it can seem like low miles means more reliable, but sometimes high miles just proves the car is up for it. And of course there is the treatment it's received, has it been repaired, competently or otherwise?

At that sort of price, the idea of a shop-bought warranty is appealing, but then so is a real beater-bargain, and take a chance.

 

[Ben Z]

The M9 is a special case because of the sensor. Sure if it has been replaced that's a plus, but it isn't a fix, it can happen again, and has, to many people. Leica has promised to keep replacing the sensors free, but it can take months to get it done. I never had any corrosion on mine, but I'm not sorry I got rid of it, and I wouldn't buy one at any price in any condition, even with a new sensor. The old addage about "buying trouble" comes to mind. Now I would not hesitate to buy an M240 with cosmetic wear and many actuations, unless I planned on putting a ton of actuations on it myself in a short period of time. Of course I would only buy one of these cameras from a reputable dealer with a warranty of at least 60 days.

 

[asiafish]

A brand-new M-E isn't that much more.

 

[Doug]

I liked my M9 bought used here from an RFF member in 2010, and sold it "as new in box" with 7000 clicks in 2013 feeling fortunate it went for $4787, this before the sensor corrosion issue became well known. I didn't know about that, and in retrospect no files shot then show the problem. I hope the new owner is having fun and no troubles. But I am glad it's out of my hands.

 

[ChrisLivsey]

A brand-new M-E isn't that much more.

With the same sensor issue, potentially.
Only Leica could get away with selling new cameras with a know issue, and they only just did.
Financially how long can they repair with new sensors free of charge?

(Sorry, don't derail the thread thinking out loud)