Calculating light by eye (without a light meter) indoors

It seems to me Rich to be your side of the argument being defencive to me ... people on this board have seen my using a metre and I don't claim to never use one anyway, but looking at the scene is my starting point, and if I know the 'correct' exposure I use it.

However even if that's wrong in some way suggesting that simply transposing a meter reading from the meter onto the camera will give one the 'correct' exposure you are doing them a disservice I think.
 
... an example ... a while ago I watched a Red Arrows display with my brother in law, he with modern DSLR me with a F3 ... he was set to Auto (as always), I to sunny f16 ... we both photographed it

I imagine you know the result already ... he spent a lot of the time twiddling with that little compensation wheel and got a few aircraft silhouette on a blown ground ... I got half a roll of red arrows, blue sky and fluffy white clouds
 
Hey, I'm sort of agreeing with you, Stewart! I'm saying always using the meter (especially without a healthy dollop of scepticism) is as problematic as never metering!

You don't have to meter all the time - using sunny 11 outdoors in the UK is usually good enough to get in the ballpark if that's all that's needed (often the case) . But I'd never go out without a meter, even if I don't end up using - in case I find myself in difficult light or wanting precise exposure.
 
It didn't take me years, and shouldn't for you either! I first practiced just walking around with a light meter, taking exposure readings and paying attention to the intensity of the light. I made sure to do this indoors as well as outdoors, at all times of the day. You will be surprised as to how quickly you can start to estimate light values very accurately. I wouldn't even say a matter of days, but hours.
Then, practice doing this ever so often and you'll be fine. It is easier if at first you stick to just one film speed. Once you get the hang of that, then it is no issue to take that experience and adjust it for different ISO values.
I find it a very helpful photographic exercise, because you really start to examine your scene and decide what inside it you want to base your exposure on. By extension it helps you compose your light as well as your subject.
A very practical and totally rational approach -- though I'd say that your "hours" would be spread over days unless you wander round all day doing this (and getting funny looks!)

But then, not everyone here wants helpful and rational.

Cheers,

R.
 
Yes that is true. While the human eye is an excellent comparator of lighting it is hopeless at measuring absolute values in the way you suggest. What I suggested was simply a compromise aperture between speed and enough DOF (f2.8) and the slowest speed I can hand-hold a camera (1/30sec) ... it is in fact simply making the best of a bad job ... knowing absolute values below those that the system is capable of producing is futile


It's definitely an imperfect situation with regards to the film that I normally use. Movie studios use much more light - than often occurs in a normal living or dining room.

EV 6 for me at f/2.8 means a shutter speed of 1/15th of second with ISO 400 film. Concerns regarding the lack of depth of field and motion blur are already on my mind.

To all the perfectionists - I must say that without a proper meter - I am definitely:

Winging It!

The image below was taken at training meeting with a Leica II with myself braced against the podium/lectern. Shot at EV 7 - because I know this room.

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[/url]Mirror_Carina_Bri by xyz2physics, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
There isn't one guy for me. RFF is full of guys who like to pound their chests about how they, real men with big balls, never need a lightmeter, a crutch used by wussy babies with no talent. Problem is, none of these guys are any good that I have seen. I wasn't talking about you, though. I don't remember ever seeing any of your work on RFF.
This seems to really have struck a nerve with you.
Why do you care what other people do?

The original poster posed the question as to how to calculate exposure indoors w/o a light meter, and you have gone on a rant ridiculing the notion and quite frankly mocking those who do. As can be seen above.

Don't you think your tag line "real men shoot film" is a touch ironic given your comments complaining about real men? What are you saying about those who shoot digital? You don't think you are pounding your chest at them, the way supposedly the meter-less men are apparently pounding their chests at you?

Maybe it's time to step back, take a deep breath and relax.

Huss, Thank you! I was about to write him the same thing. His posts have a dozen topics of negative judgments about men, wealth, posting, writing, photography styles, on and on. Funny how everyone is wrong...but him.

Back to not metering. I have shot weplate collodion for 8 years. I have NEVER used a meter for it. NO wetplater uses a meter, they are useless in the predominately UV and Blue Light part of the spectrum where wetplate works, at about ISO 1. But we do very well with collodion photography. After a month or two of constant shooting, you can do fine without a meter.

Meters are a relatively new invention. Saying a photographer "must" use a meter, besides being very judgmental, is like saying a person "must" use digital photography, and throw away film.

Let everyone do what he wants to do, stop the "my way or the highway" beliefs.
 
I completely agree with the 1/30 @ 2.8 or 2 comment. For literally decades, and a series of different photo careers, I never used a meter except in the studio, and when I went digital, with my Nikon D300, that was the first time I had let the camera's meter have its way. I discovered something then, about what meters do that I've never realized: photos at night looked basically as if they'd been shot in the daytime. Too bright, too much detail, unreal. All of those years I'd been proportionally underexposing as night scenes got darker--if it was really bad I'd open a stop or two, but never past a shutter speed I could handle, and guess what, it was the right thing to do.

The same was happening in other less obvious situations.

The bottom line was that over a long period of time I'd evolved an exposure scheme that was appropriate to the situations, not based on the absolute light level, and I didn't need the crutch of a meter plus a bunch of zone figuring, metering highlights and shadows, and "previsualization" stuff to get the right exposure. I just set the camera and immediately shot the danged picture then, not five minutes later after it was gone.

The comment that a meter is "necessary" is of course ridiculous as well as unnecessarily obsessive. The first 75 years of photography, some of the most famous photographers we have, did just fine without meters.

edit: just read the comment above mine. For the last six months I've been shooting x-ray film, which has the same problems as collodion. For the first few shots, I had problems, not realizing the tungsten light problems, but I quickly readjusted, based on my previous experience. I suspect that meter drones, not having any baselines, would have a MUCH bigger problem than I'm having. 🙂
 
Earlier I wrote that I have carried my IIIc for many years and get good results without a meter. I should clarify. I am not a pro, just a hobbyist who likes photography with old cameras. Most of what I do is family and friends in places I have been before. I do not claim to have accurate eyes but learning from experience. One of the most difficult shots I do is stage lighting at my daughters school. I have learned it is much brighter than it looks. If you like a meter, Great. If you don't, that's Great too. Just do what works for you. Joe

PS I'm glad we don't discuss politics around here!!!
 
Hmmm, I'm beginning to wonder if thermometers and timers in the darkroom are for wimps too... And safe-lights perhaps.

What bothers me is that exact exposure can be varied by about 2 or even 3 stops either way and still produce an image. With that sort of fudge built in I wonder why people can claim funny 16 is so precise; well, precise enough to do away with the meter.

Regards, David
 
Hmmm, I'm beginning to wonder if thermometers and timers in the darkroom are for wimps too... And safe-lights perhaps.

What bothers me is that exact exposure can be varied by about 2 or even 3 stops either way and still produce an image. With that sort of fudge built in I wonder why people can claim funny 16 is so precise; well, precise enough to do away with the meter.

Regards, David

... em? how could you be convinced, Mmm tricky ...

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These are always amusing threads. I suppose if this were a outdoor recreation forum some would say camping with a tarp and bedroll is fine. The other side would say you are stupid not to use a fully decked out RV that costs more than many peoples homes.

I also find that the OP's first post is fairly simple, and instead of answering the question, people start inferring chest beating and trying to be cool. Apparently you guys are amature psychologists too.

My opinion is use a meter if you are producing for others and minimizing getting something wrong is mandatory, and your paycheck is on the line. But most of us are doing this for fun, so there is no right or wrong. Do what you like, and don't worry about other's opinions including mine.
 
My observation is that you name anything, and people who can't do it will say it CAN'T be done, while people who do it regularly will never convince the first group that it CAN be done. I've seen and done that, both sides, enough in my life to be careful not to belong to the first group anymore, no matter what.

As an employer, I try not to hire the first group, either. Things just go better when they're working for the competition. 🙂
 
Hmmm, I'm beginning to wonder if thermometers and timers in the darkroom are for wimps too... And safe-lights perhaps.

David - You are muddying the topic with unrelated issues. Let me throw a couple of back your way. Do you regularly use a GPS device to know exactly where you are located? How about measuring those exposed negatives with a proper densitometer before printing? The latter is a standard feature on a Fuji Frontier photo print machine.

What bothers me is that exact exposure can be varied by about 2 or even 3 stops either way and still produce an image.

I thank my lucky stars for this - but with practice, one can get the error on judging exposure down to one stop - particularly if he or she are shooting a local scene or room repeatedly over many rolls of film.

With that sort of fudge built in I wonder why people can claim funny 16 is so precise; well, precise enough to do away with the meter.

Granted even full sunlight can vary between a December and July afternoon.

Ideally, I'd have the time to take a light reading at the subject with an incident meter for each exposure. An in camera reflective meter on the other hand can do strange things when people are wearing all black or all white clothing - but I'm digressing a bit from my point, which is below.

When I made the above exposure of the two students presenting an optics demonstration, the working light meter was two floors below me in a desk drawer. Keep in mind that I'm working with a Leica II. It was far better to persevere without the meter and I'm quite happy with the results.

If the moment arises and you are meterless - just set the exposure the best you can and hope you get the shot, be it over or under exposed - it is better than no exposure.

Best Regards,
 
My observation is that you name anything, and people who can't do it will say it CAN'T be done, while people who do it regularly will never convince the first group that it CAN be done. I've seen and done that, both sides, enough in my life to be careful not to belong to the first group anymore, no matter what.

I thought photography was like religion. There is totally proper technique versus heresy.

And for the smiley face, I'll choose this one....:angel:
 
David - You are muddying the topic with unrelated issues...

Best Regards,

Hi,

I thought they were also for precise and important measurements...

Regards, David

PS I have often guessed the exposure and usually got it right but I'd prefer a meter to start with and wouldn't advise anyone to do without. But I expect them to get to know/expect the results as I would. Nor do I think I'm the only one to open the lens to f/2 and chance 1 sec and then half a second...
 
A 1/15th of second is about as low I'll go. Even at 1/30th of second, I prefer lean into a wall or a pole for steadiness. The old Barnack that I have only goes down to 1/20th of second.

P.S. - I do believe in good timers and thermometers for the darkroom - but if I'm discussing exposure, I try not mention the inherent risks of scale focusing with a Rollei 35. :angel:
 
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