ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
Here on RFF and elsewhere, I see people asking basic questions about Camera-Scanning. This thread is to collect those basic questions and answers.
I pose a couple to start, but everyone feel free to ask and answer.
I pose a couple to start, but everyone feel free to ask and answer.
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
What is Camera-Scanning?
What is Camera-Scanning?
What do we mean by Camera-Scanning?
For some time, we've had devices for creating digital files from chromes and negatives. We've called these "scanners" because of the way they worked, scanning across the image area on film.
Camera-Scanning is creating such a file using a conventional digital camera.
What is Camera-Scanning?
What do we mean by Camera-Scanning?
For some time, we've had devices for creating digital files from chromes and negatives. We've called these "scanners" because of the way they worked, scanning across the image area on film.
Camera-Scanning is creating such a file using a conventional digital camera.
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
What is the easiest/cheapest way to get started?
What is the easiest/cheapest way to get started?
I see this question all the time. What is the easiest way to get started?
My answers:
- Use whatever lens has small field of view at close focus, point it at film, then crop
- Add a macro lens, vertical setup w/tripod
- Buy a bellows and slide/film holder
- Buy a front-of-macro-lens accessory
Your thoughts? Please post photos illustrating the basics, how to get started.
What is the easiest/cheapest way to get started?
I see this question all the time. What is the easiest way to get started?
My answers:
- Use whatever lens has small field of view at close focus, point it at film, then crop
- Add a macro lens, vertical setup w/tripod
- Buy a bellows and slide/film holder
- Buy a front-of-macro-lens accessory
Your thoughts? Please post photos illustrating the basics, how to get started.
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
How to Use 55mm MicroNikkor for Camera Scan
How to Use 55mm MicroNikkor for Camera Scan
Basics... What do I need to use a 55mm MicroNikkor, either of two manual focus models, for camera-scan. First, you need an adapter for Nikon F-mount lens to your camera body. Simplest adapter is sufficient.
1. For 35mm to an APS body, set the lens near closest focus and add 8mm or more extension so that the film image fills the frame. Nikon PK-11, any version will do. (Using a short tube vs longer will help a bit for the 55 f/2.8 Micro-Nikkor because it has Nikon's "Close Range Correction." For the 55 f/3.5, any tube up to 27.5mm will do.)
2. For 35mm to a FF body, set lens at closest focus and add 27.5mm extension. Nikon PK-13 or M tube, any version will do.
3. For 120 or larger to any digital body, just mount the lens on adapter and focus.
#CameraScanBasics
How to Use 55mm MicroNikkor for Camera Scan
Basics... What do I need to use a 55mm MicroNikkor, either of two manual focus models, for camera-scan. First, you need an adapter for Nikon F-mount lens to your camera body. Simplest adapter is sufficient.
1. For 35mm to an APS body, set the lens near closest focus and add 8mm or more extension so that the film image fills the frame. Nikon PK-11, any version will do. (Using a short tube vs longer will help a bit for the 55 f/2.8 Micro-Nikkor because it has Nikon's "Close Range Correction." For the 55 f/3.5, any tube up to 27.5mm will do.)
2. For 35mm to a FF body, set lens at closest focus and add 27.5mm extension. Nikon PK-13 or M tube, any version will do.
3. For 120 or larger to any digital body, just mount the lens on adapter and focus.
#CameraScanBasics
madNbad
Well-known
Thanks for the information. Any suggestions on using the Nikon ES-2 with the 55 Micro-Nikkor and a APS-C sensor camera?
frank-grumman
Well-known
The ES-2 is cheesey-like build construction. The retaining springs on the "holder" are insufficiently strong to hold the film holder in place, at times the weight of which w/ 35mm film was enough to cause the entire holder to tip over to the long side when attempting to scan the first frame. I purchased it brand-new from BH. Save your money and look elsewhere and Col. Moran and others here on the site will have alternate suggestions. You could also go over to www.negativelabpro.com, go the forum section and look for the thread on which there have been a number of posts with persons showing pictures of their rigs. I decided to spare no expense so I got the full 35mm rig from www.negative.supply to use with my Fuji X-H1, and a Fuji 80mm Macro, a Kaiser Slim Plano, smaller version. HTH, Frank
madNbad
Well-known
As a former Pennsylvanian (grew up in Bucks County) I would love to support the guys from Philadelphia making the Negative Supply carriers but I don't expose nearly enough film or different emulsions to justify the cost. I know Richard has high praise for the Skier lightbox and film holder from Taiwan. We live in a small house and I share a work table with my wife's' beading projects so a portable setup that can be moved easily is important. T-Max 400 is the only film I'm using, so color balance is not as important as lighting consistency. Currently, I have an ES-2 mounted to a 55 2.8 Micro-Nikkor Ai-S. It's attached to a Sony A5100 with a Metabones adapter. Everything is on a copystand that I can move for storage. In its' configuration, there is a PK-13 extension ring between the lens and adapter plus another 20 mm tube between the front of the lens and the ES-2. What I'm asking is, if I reduce the distance between the lens and the adapter can I eliminate the extra extension tube?
froyd
Veteran
Very interested in this topic but I can see the thread is already more advanced than what I can handle!
Here are my question --don't shoot I'm a complete ignoramus when it comes to digital cameras.
- What's the minimum sensor spec required in the digitizing camera? My only digital is a Sony RX100, 1" 20mp, is it too small for a quality capture? micro 4/3? DX? FF?
- How important is the quality of the sensor, i.e. is high DR a factor when selecting a body to use for scanning or there's no big difference in scans from a Nikon D3 and a D5?
- Is a copy stand required?
- I like the idea of using one of my flash guns (SB-28) instead of a light table. Is that not recommended?
Here are my question --don't shoot I'm a complete ignoramus when it comes to digital cameras.
- What's the minimum sensor spec required in the digitizing camera? My only digital is a Sony RX100, 1" 20mp, is it too small for a quality capture? micro 4/3? DX? FF?
- How important is the quality of the sensor, i.e. is high DR a factor when selecting a body to use for scanning or there's no big difference in scans from a Nikon D3 and a D5?
- Is a copy stand required?
- I like the idea of using one of my flash guns (SB-28) instead of a light table. Is that not recommended?
madNbad
Well-known
Check out the forums at Negative Lab Pro: https://forums.negativelabpro.com
There is a lot of information on lighting and different camera set ups. A copy stand is not required but helpful. The author of this thread has contributed some valuable information on there as well.
Chris101
summicronia
Hi froyd, I'm not an expert, but I have a few years camera and scanner scanning of negatives and transparencies. So I'm gonna give a shot at answering your questions.
I have read that a fine, tabular grain film, such as Ilford Delta 100, has an acuity that is about the same as a 20-25 megapixel digital image. So resolution-wise, your camera should be able to resolve the detail in the image. The small sensor however limits the 'dynamic range' of the digitized negative. The dynamic range of film is large on the order of 13 to 15 stops. DxO tested the RX100, and concluded it could capture 10 stops of dynamic range.
So scanning an ideal negative with your RX100 will be at the limit of resolution, but miss significant tonal separation. A scan may look flat as a result. However in practice, my developing is often far from ideal. I've been able to get an acceptable scan of many of my negatives with far less 10 stops of dynamic range, and as few as 12 megapixels (using a Nikon D2x or D700.)
If the dynamic range of the negative exceeds the ability of the digital capture, then the inherent contrast, and thus tonal detail of the negative will be lost. This results in a flat scan, which must have it's contrast boosted to look correct. However doing this with Lightroon, etc. results is a loss of resolution.
This is why I choose a Nikon D850 to scan with. It has a tested dynamic range of about 15 stops. This is equal or more than most film. The resolution is about double the acuity of film, so there is additional resolution of grain clumps. This seems to reduce the effect of so called "grain aliasing", where a mottled pattern is overlaid on a scanned image. The grain of a higher resolution, higher dynamic range digital image looks more like a darkroom print's grain than I have seen in lower megapixel and DR images.
You need to keep the optical path from the original negative, and the imaging camera completely steady. Any vibration, even at the micron level, will obscure the 'grain clumps', and make the image look blurred.
I use a Nikon ES-2. I sorta agree with frank-grumman, it's all plastic, the springs and closures leave a lot to be desired. But the Negative Supply hardware seems to be very sturdy, it's also super expensive. Since I bought the ES-2, I made it work with my D850 and 60mm f/2.8 AF-D lens. It takes a bit of kludging but I've got it damn steady now.
That's exactly what I do. I use a Nikon SB600, on a small tripod inches away from the negative holder of the ES-2. I point a light at the diffuser of the flash to provide modeling light to align and (optionally) crop the negative for the scan. I use live view (mirrorless mode) for most of the negatives, but if I really need to dig in a low contrast negative, then I'll switch to the eyepiece.
The advantages of flash are consistent color temperature, and a very short exposure time (~40 microseconds) through a compact optical path, both of which increase the stability of the system. The downsides are 1) that you need to have a high-end flash that can fire as a small fraction of its normal power, and 2) light from a flash is more columnated than light from a light table, so dust is more obvious.
Here is a picture of my camera scanning setup:
I have read that a fine, tabular grain film, such as Ilford Delta 100, has an acuity that is about the same as a 20-25 megapixel digital image. So resolution-wise, your camera should be able to resolve the detail in the image. The small sensor however limits the 'dynamic range' of the digitized negative. The dynamic range of film is large on the order of 13 to 15 stops. DxO tested the RX100, and concluded it could capture 10 stops of dynamic range.
So scanning an ideal negative with your RX100 will be at the limit of resolution, but miss significant tonal separation. A scan may look flat as a result. However in practice, my developing is often far from ideal. I've been able to get an acceptable scan of many of my negatives with far less 10 stops of dynamic range, and as few as 12 megapixels (using a Nikon D2x or D700.)
If the dynamic range of the negative exceeds the ability of the digital capture, then the inherent contrast, and thus tonal detail of the negative will be lost. This results in a flat scan, which must have it's contrast boosted to look correct. However doing this with Lightroon, etc. results is a loss of resolution.
This is why I choose a Nikon D850 to scan with. It has a tested dynamic range of about 15 stops. This is equal or more than most film. The resolution is about double the acuity of film, so there is additional resolution of grain clumps. This seems to reduce the effect of so called "grain aliasing", where a mottled pattern is overlaid on a scanned image. The grain of a higher resolution, higher dynamic range digital image looks more like a darkroom print's grain than I have seen in lower megapixel and DR images.
You need to keep the optical path from the original negative, and the imaging camera completely steady. Any vibration, even at the micron level, will obscure the 'grain clumps', and make the image look blurred.
I use a Nikon ES-2. I sorta agree with frank-grumman, it's all plastic, the springs and closures leave a lot to be desired. But the Negative Supply hardware seems to be very sturdy, it's also super expensive. Since I bought the ES-2, I made it work with my D850 and 60mm f/2.8 AF-D lens. It takes a bit of kludging but I've got it damn steady now.
That's exactly what I do. I use a Nikon SB600, on a small tripod inches away from the negative holder of the ES-2. I point a light at the diffuser of the flash to provide modeling light to align and (optionally) crop the negative for the scan. I use live view (mirrorless mode) for most of the negatives, but if I really need to dig in a low contrast negative, then I'll switch to the eyepiece.
The advantages of flash are consistent color temperature, and a very short exposure time (~40 microseconds) through a compact optical path, both of which increase the stability of the system. The downsides are 1) that you need to have a high-end flash that can fire as a small fraction of its normal power, and 2) light from a flash is more columnated than light from a light table, so dust is more obvious.
Here is a picture of my camera scanning setup:
frank-grumman
Well-known
Chris101,
Your post above is very helpful to me. Thanks so much
Your post above is very helpful to me. Thanks so much
froyd
Veteran
Thanks, Chris. Very informative.
I like the idea of skipping the copy stand (or having to butcher my enlarger) in favor of tripod and flash. Would a large diffuser help with minimizing the appearance of dust?
I like the idea of skipping the copy stand (or having to butcher my enlarger) in favor of tripod and flash. Would a large diffuser help with minimizing the appearance of dust?
madNbad
Well-known
So how did you kludge your ES-2?
Chris101
summicronia
madNbad: I put shims in where the film holder goes so it didn’t wiggle, and used binder clips (not shown) to hold the film holder closed. At first I put a brace under the end of it, so it didn’t pull the lens down, but turned out I didn’t need to.
Thanks froyd and frank. Frank, how do you like the Negative Supply device? It looks very well made!
Thanks froyd and frank. Frank, how do you like the Negative Supply device? It looks very well made!
madNbad
Well-known
My answer arrived in the mail. Originally, I was just going to get the PK-11 ring (8mm) but while I was on the KEH site decided to add a PK-12 (14mm). Using a Sony A5100, I attached the PK-11 to a Metabones adapter along with the 55 Micro-Nikkor. If I was going to continue to use the Lomography Digitalizer as a film holder on the light pad, this is a fine combination. Using the ES-2, it was necessary to have a little more room between the sensor and the film. Along with the PK-12, I'm using a 30mm tube between the front of the lens and the ES-2. The negative fills the frame and gives me a full 24 MP capture. It also allows for focus adjustment using the lens instead of trying to slide the copy attachment into just the right spot. If I decide to spend the extra bucks for a Skier unit or even bigger bucks for the Negative Supply, I'll be glad I have the right extension ring. For the near future, this arrangement should be fine.
frank-grumman
Well-known
Chris, I haven't gotten it yet. I'm in the apparently long line waiting for it to be completed. Report is that it is hand assembled. First ETA I got was for "middle of January," so, I'll wait till end of week and look to get a notice. If not, I'll contact them to see if they have one ready yet for me. NS and I are both in Philly, so shipping times shouldn't be an issue. I'll post up here with my setup when it shows up. Take care, Frank
I'll post up here with my setup when it shows up. Take care, Frank
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
One comment... Using the 55 f/2.8 Micro-Nikkor for camera-scan, you want the lens focusing ring at/near the extreme closeup position. This lens has Nikon "Close Range Correction" which improves results up close, but only if the helical is positioned for up-close.
I suggest trying different extension tubes and see which ones put the helical at the up-close position. For me, to an APS body, that's 8mm extension.
mcfingon
Western Australia
Another Nikon lens I find good for scanning use like this is the enlarging EL-Nikkor 50/2.8 on a focusing adapter of the range 25-55mm made by Pixco. This in turn goes on a m42 to Nikon F adapter then on my Nikon D3500.
John Mc
John Mc
frank-grumman
Well-known
I just got notification of shipping of my Negative Supply gear. End of next week, enough time lag for me to get my light table. Five rolls waiting to scan. I'm pumped. Now, if I can just figure out how the hell to post up here something other than a thumbnail sized picture, I can let you see what the setup does (or not) as the case may be.
madNbad
Well-known
After buying stuff that worked ok but wasn't quite right, decided to get a Skier Copy Box. It is very well made, much brighter than the cheap lightpad I had been using, will work with the ES-2 but found the holder designed for the box just works better. Thank you, Richard!