Can someone identify my Leica LTM?

[Tijmendal]

Hi,

I just bought this camera and have got no clue what model it is. II, IIf or something different?

- Serial dates it from 1932
- Top speed is 1/1000th. (Other speeds are B, 20-1, 30, 40, 60, 100, 200, 500)
- Slow shutter dial is masked (like the IIf)
- Film advance is 'plain', without the ISO setting

Pics:

Thanks!

 

[johannielscom]

Seems to me it's a Leica II that was returned to the factory later to be updated with the flash contact and flash delay switch under the shutter speed dial. Being of 1932 provenance, it must have started out as a black paint camera with nickel trim.

The shutter speed dial itself may not be factory-issued, it reads 20-1 while there are no slow speeds dial on the front of the camera. But then again, the body shell is factory supplied since it has strap lugs (Leica II did not have those) and the shutter dial maybe was the only one available at the factory by the time this that updated. That's probably why all trim was updated to chrome, there was no nickel trim available at the factory anymore.

I really like the brass-and-chrome look, kind of like an 'anti-Panda LTM' if you would blacken the brass with a chemical.

 

[Filzkoeter]

As Johan said: a pre-war II that was (post-war) factory-converted to a IIa syn (1/1000 top speed + flash).
I think the shutter speed dial is factory-issued. There are plenty IIf without slow speeds but with 20-1 or 25-1 shutter dials. Propably Leica just stopped producing later shutter speed dials without the "-1" at some point (there were not that many If or IIf produced and propably many upgraded).

Somehow a shame that the black paint was stripped, but nevertheless it looks quite cool with the brass & chrome look. Please don't polish the patina away, let the brass get darker with time & use 😎

 

[Mr_Flibble]

The old II shutter curtains ran slower than the IIIc ones, making 1/20th the slowest speed on the dial (that could be synched) instead of 1/30th.
The technician doing the upgrade would have known this and Leica presumably had these dials specifically for this upgrade from pre-war II to post-war IIf.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Until about 1960 Leitz offered conversions of their pre-war (pre IIIc) models, essentially to provide flash synchronisation for these cameras. Black cameras stayed black and chrome cameras stayed chrome. See the special "sticky" thread about these cameras.

Erik.

 

[Dralowid]

Yes, conversion to IIa syn. You can tell by the larger top housing and protruding shoe.

It wouldn't be too hard to repaint this camera. The lettering would have been engraved and white filled, no 'woods metal' on this later housing.

There was a good looking one for sale at Leicashop (or maybe Westlicht Auction) recently. Fetched good money.

 

[Tijmendal]

Thanks for the help everyone!
I'm new to Leica screw mounts. So this is a nickel camera that used to be black? Shame it's not any more. It seems to me the housing was sanded or something. Surely a camera wouldn't look like that by using it?

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Another point of interest is that the raised frame around the viewfinder window is similar in shape to that of the Leica IIIb, while retaining the split RF/VF of the earlier design. It is the same for a IIIa to IIIa-sync conversion I have. The VF/RF housing is a little taller than the one of the actual IIIb.

 

[Rob-F]

There is no serial number on the top plate, which makes it a lot harder to figure out what it originally was. The top plate must have been replaced; and yet, when this is done, they usually engrave the original number with an asterisk after it. It must have been replaced in the field.

I see a diopter lever sticking out in back, on the eyepiece. The II didn't have that. And yet it's not a III or IIIa, or it would have a slow speed dial. And it's not a IIb, or the diopter lever would be under the rewind knob. So it must have been made during the time of the III or IIIa; probably the IIIa, since it has 1/1000 speed. SO I think it's a transitional camera made after the original II, during a time when you could get the newer production but without the slow speeds. That might place it around 1938, since the IIIa was in production then but so also was the II, for example in the range from 308201 to 308300; or 309501 to 309700; or 311001-311200. It could also have been from 1939, when there were some blocks of the II interspersed with blocks of the IIIa, in a similar fashion to those of 1938. The sync dial could have been retrofitted any time from 1951 on, when the IIf appeared.

I guess you could call it a IIa, although I don't think there was such a model, officially.

Edit: Or maybe the serial# is just too faint to show? I don't see one. There must be, OP says it he dates it to 1932.

 

[Luddite Frank]

I'll chime-in here... owning an un-molested 1932 II ( 77xxx ).

Here are some features that have me baffled:

1) "Blank-off" for Slow-speeds dial - when did Leica start this ? my II has a plain-front body. Was the body shell replaced ? I thought the "blanked-off slow speeds plinth" didn't happen until the new, cast bodies of the -c era ?

2) A-R lever - what's with that little "tail" / "Bulge" pointing back towards the shutter release button, from the mounting screw ?

3) Flash-Sync scale - stamped right into the old-style top ??? The pre-sync cameras which were returned to Leitz for flash-sync which I've seen have the sync scale as a little plate added under the shutter-speeds dial, and secured by little screws...

4) Pre-War shutter release and collar


I also find it interesting that the brassing on the bottom plate seems to match the brassing up top...

 

[Tijmendal]

I'll chime-in here... owning an un-molested 1932 II ( 77xxx ).

Here are some features that have me baffled:

2) A-R lever - what's with that little "tail" / "Bulge" pointing back towards the shutter release button, from the mounting screw ?


I also find it interesting that the brassing on the bottom plate seems to match the brassing up top...

The little 'tail' is a stopper for the lever.
The brassing is something I'm really curious about: how did it come to be like that? Also: the bottom plate of the camera is painted with some pretty tacky, glossy black paint (that's holding up REALLY) well.

There is no serial number on the top plate, which makes it a lot harder to figure out what it originally was. The top plate must have been replaced; and yet, when this is done, they usually engrave the original number with an asterisk after it. It must have been replaced in the field.

Edit: Or maybe the serial# is just too faint to show? I don't see one. There must be, OP says it he dates it to 1932.

There is a serial number, but it's faint. It's 80.XXX

 

[Luddite Frank]

Okay...

I think I'm figuring this out... I just dragged-out my 1932 II 77xxx, and my 1934 III 136xxx, and my III-c stepper 386xxx, plus looked at some Barnacks via Google images.

The top-plate of the mystery camera appears to be a service-piece, specially made to accomodate flash-sync to pre-war Barnacks.

The VF window "moulding" is consistent with the III-a, as well as the eyepiece magnifier for the RF viewer.

I'm a bit curious as to the need for a replacement body shell ? Was this necessitated by internal details with regard to the sync / shutter upgrade ?

The rewind knob appears to be a pre-war Chrome knob ( with the shaft "button" visible at the center of the knob ).


I've attached some pictures that seem to corroborate all of this... I find it interesting that the non-sync plates are stamped " No." and the sync plates are stamped
" Nr. "

Did the camera come with a lens ? How does it seem to function ?

Left photo - Leica IIIa with factory sync added / Middle Photo - same camera from back / Right photo - late 1930's Chrome II - no sync.

 

[Dralowid]

Attached are some pictures which clear this up. As I said before it is a IIa syn, the normal factory nomenclature for a post war factory conversion of this type. The taller housing, including window mouldings and raised accessory shoe is all part of this conversion as are other details. They are very nice cameras and not particularly uncommon (well they weren't). If you read through the 'conversions' thread there is plenty of info on this and other versions including a price list from the factory for conversion

IMG_2317 by dralowid, on Flickr

IMG_2318 by dralowid, on Flickr

IMG_2319 by dralowid, on Flickr

IMG_2320 by dralowid, on Flickr

It is an interesting area, often avoided by collectors, dealers and authors of books on Leicas!

 

[Luddite Frank]

Michael,

Thanks for pictures of this stunning example !

Your camera is within 200+ units of my II... 🙂

 

[Dralowid]

Michael,

Thanks for pictures of this stunning example !

Your camera is within 200+ units of my II... 🙂

Well perhaps they need a party to get re-acquainted!

...and Erik will tell us whether the lens is a conversion too, something to do with the style of focussing mark, I can't remember...but it does have a serial number.

Michael

 

[DNG]

You can see the S#... No 80806 is what it looks like..
Click on the OP photo, and use the browser page magnifier... (Hold Control, and press the "+" with Windows based and Firefox)

It is really interesting to hear the history of a camera.. even the investigation observations from knowledgeable people is interesting, as they piece together the clues.

 

[Luddite Frank]

Well perhaps they need a party to get re-acquainted!

...and Erik will tell us whether the lens is a conversion too, something to do with the style of focussing mark, I can't remember...but it does have a serial number.

Michael

When I am travelling in the UK, we must do this ! 😀

I am of no help with the red-scale elmar... my only Elmar 5 cm is a nickel "11 o'clock"... 😉

 

[Dralowid]

When I am travelling in the UK, we must do this ! 😀

I am of no help with the red-scale elmar... my only Elmar 5 cm is a nickel "11 o'clock"... 😉

Perhaps we could sip a 'conversions conversation' carafe of something somewhere!

Regarding the lens, I realise I am as guilty as everyone else of a specific and annoying web based sin.

That sin is to not take the time to read through all the excellent information on this website before asking the same question for the hundredth time!

Must be getting old...

 

[Dwig]

... There is a serial number, but it's faint. It's 80.XXX

My serial # lists indicates the top cover belongs to a II from 1932. If this is the original top cover then there have been extensive upgrades:

• new body shell (the presence of the cover for the "missing" slow speed dial)
• strap lugs (IIs did not have strap lugs) that may have come with the new shell
• 1/1000sec to speed

not to mention the '50s vintage sync conversion.

 

[Luddite Frank]

S/N is from '32, but top-shell is definitely later.

Compare it to photos of original black-paint / nickel II's... I went to Google Images, as well as my own 1932 II.

Top cover is also different from original, non-sync II / III tops - examine contour around shutter-speed dial.

I did not realize there were so many little variations, prior to reading this thread... 😱