crawdiddy
qu'est-ce que c'est?
sepiareverb is 100% correct on this.
I'm amazed that some posters say it's OK to photograph (fill-in-the-blank), as long as you do it for the RIGHT reason (or as long as you don't do it for a CREEPY reason.)
Are you guys ready to authorize the Thought Police? And why are you so willing to do so, and so suspicious of the motivations of others? Is it because you're normal, but fear the motivations of others? Or are you not so sure about your own thoughts?
kermaier
Well-known
I agree, I wouldn't label it wrong -- I'm just considering the topic a bit less absolutely, less guilty/not-guilty, room for a bit more nuance. And you're right -- how people approach this topic is very much dependent on age, culture and background.
Unfortunately, that's the danger of discussing photos I haven't seen -- which is why I've tried not to say anything about these photos in particular, but rather the issues the OP has raised in their context.
::Ari
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Right on. We can't give in to letting someone else decide our morality or empathy. Don't give up the fight.
yanidel
Well-known
indeed ... oups ... hope she does not read this forum
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I think that Barney is creepy.
Let's all write Congress to have him arrested.
Let's all write Congress to have him arrested.
raid
Dad Photographer
Das is ja wunderbar Kollege Gabriel.
Es ist rotzbremsenschoen dass du das sagst! umpf umpf umpf
antiquark
Derek Ross
But, by definition, your empathy is decided by the other person. If one of your photographic subjects tell you that you don't have empathy, then you don't have empathy! Empathy is an understanding how someone else feels.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
I find that I have almost nothing at all in common with them. I take photos of them, because I am a professional and tht is what I get paid to do, but I can't have a serious discussion with them. I've tried, and usually I just get a blank stare. They don't know who Jimi Hendrix, Cream, and Iron Butterfly are and I've never heard of the groups they listen to; a lot of them have never seen a mechanical camera (let alone a rangefinder); last young girl I talked to thought Vietnam was somewhere near Cuba (and an 18-year-old said he knew what the war was like because he'd seen "Apocalypse Now"); I was driving a restored 68 Impala up until 2007 and several young women couldn't undertstand why I didn't get something newer, and on and on. I prefer to talk to people with whom I at least share a basic frame of reference.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Hoping, yes, expecting no. If pigs had wings...
That's quite a statement from someone who just said he'd assault someone for photographing his wife on a beach.
Oh, I see. My mistake. I was assuming your wife and kids were not running around naked in public. I thought we were just talking about people relaxing on a beach wearing swimsuits. If they are running around without clothes, and people are photograhing them, then I can see how that would be upsetting.
panda81
Member
Please point out where I said anything about assault. As far as I remember, I only said I would "have a word or two," meaning tell him how my wife doesn't like it and ask him to delete the photo. Would I be unhappy about it? Sure. Attack the guy? I never said that, and would never do that.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
I always thought of empathy as projecting one's feelings onto others- deciding that someone needed pity for example... I stand corrected.
back alley
IMAGES
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
kermaier
Well-known
I think you're incorrect in assuming that people voicing a negative reaction to the work would disallow it if they could. I don't see anyone talking about policing thought or morality - just judging it. If a piece of art provokes a variety of reactions, who are you to decide which are valid? That sounds more like thought policing to me...
I don't subscribe the notion that art inhabits some magically context-free plane of perfect moral relativism, where the viewer's response is irrelevant at best. Art is made by people for people. And people - their pretenses notwithstanding - judge. The nature of critical judgement (my own pompousness is killing me here, but I feel compelled) is to be informed by a person's values, societal context, etc. I would argue that the main, or even sole, purpose of producing art is to elicit a response from the audience. Sometimes, far from seeking simple approval, the artist expects to provoke discomfort or revulsion - by way of challenging the viewer's values, or maybe just for the hell of it. The judgement that a work is creepy or otherwise unworthy does not imply a rejection of the artist's right to produce such work.
::Ari
Op
JohnTF
Veteran
Working as the photo editor for the university paper and yearbook, I was close several times, surviving police horse back charges with batons swinging during anti war demonstrations.
However, I was shooting a photo of the sign in the student union for the Maoists, several followed me back to the office and tried to take my camera accusing me of photographing their faces, they grabbed my arms, telling me they would show me what Communists do to people. I pulled away and loudly said they were assaulting me, put my hand in my coat pocket warning them to back away as I was armed, which gave the campus cops time to arrive and settle things down. They never were allowed on campus again. Socialist candidate for president said these kind of people gave the lefties a bad name.
That count?
One of my 16 yr old students took a shot of the canal from a bridge in Amsterdam, and a red head in underwear ran out and yelled at him from 100 m, "You no look, you buy". He almost dropped the camera in to the canal.
For the beach, just hire Brad Pitt, they never seem to think he is leering or being creepy. (Just kidding) I remember the "girl watchers'" lens ads a long time ago.
My physics colleagues tell me that once photons are reflected, they belong to any one's retina they strike.
Funny how people are not so worried about photos at the beach in Europe.
And Roger, I agree with you, you talk to whom you talk to, people generally figure out with whom they wish to speak and who is interesting. There are many things to talk about, if some woman is interested in some other kind of relationship, she will figure a way to make that known. Not every conversation is a calculated prelude to some bizarre intention. Being easy, if they blow in my ear, buy me a few drinks, I may consider that a sign. ;-)
People get freaked out all the time in the US, too much tabloid news and editorials, everyone can be made to seem odd.
Very much in the eye of the beholder.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Since it has all be said already, I searched the entire thread for the one comment that best summed up my view
runner up for best summation of my view
And I speak as the father of two daughters in their late 30's / early 40's (who fit the "take care of themselves" description) and five grand daughters, ages 11 to 16.
runner up for best summation of my view
And I speak as the father of two daughters in their late 30's / early 40's (who fit the "take care of themselves" description) and five grand daughters, ages 11 to 16.
historicist
Well-known
A lot of things are 'normal' but not necessarily pleasant to view - like your parents having sex
Doesn't mean I get my knickers in a twist about it though, which was my point.
Vaguely related to the getting beaten up for displeasing other members of the public, some guy in Germany once wanted to fight me (in front of his small children) because I crossed a road when the light was green for cars. He was particularly upset that I had done so in front of his children and exposed them to bad influences
Still on a vague tangent to the OP, there's a book called The Antiquities of Athens which was written by a couple of English guys who spent a few years surveying classical architecture in (you guessed it) Athens back in 1765 or something.
Apparently, when they were measuring one building up on a scaffold, they were made to erect a fence next to the scaffold and as high as it to make it impossible to look down on women walking down the street below.
And if, walking down the street, they happened to be on the same side of the road as a lady, they had to cross to the other side lest they be suspected of immorality.
retnull
Well-known
ANTI: ethics -- do unto others etc
PRO: Miroslav Tichy
PRO: Miroslav Tichy
charjohncarter
Veteran
peterm1
Veteran
Photography is an art. Making images of women - is this not what artists have done throught he ages? Making images of young women (and men) is time honoured in art. Assuming there is nothing illegal about it (which brings into question issues of judgement about age and the nature of the photo of course) and all parties consent is this not perfectly acceptable to most societies at most times? I grant you that consent may be problematic in the case of street photos of strangers but as long as there is not active opposition from the putative subject then I can see little wrong in photographing people including young women in public spaces. I have begun to get quite a few such images and while I try to get balance - some photos of men etc, it is clear that the photos must have interest. And its very clear from responses to my Flicker site that most people are most interested in photos of young attractive women. There is not necessarily overtly sexual in this. Its just about aethetics. (Well, so I tell my wife - ha ha!) Really though sex and aethetics are tied to each other in art so lets not just accept that and not get hung up.
But this is not to say that there are not times when people are not really gratifying their artistic impulses - they are satisfying other kinds of needs. In this case it is not OK. Say n' more.
But this is not to say that there are not times when people are not really gratifying their artistic impulses - they are satisfying other kinds of needs. In this case it is not OK. Say n' more.
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Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
I wonder what some of you would think of the super zoom shots of topless women (and even nude BTW) that are posted on some of the "adult" areas on the internet.