Canon P / Canon 7 metal curtain damaged (gap, fracture)

[Anton Stek]

Hello everyone!
Recently i've bought a wonderful Canon P from a japanese seller on eBay with 100% positive feedback in "near mint" condition fully working etc. etc. Once i've got the camera and opened the back door, i saw there is a tiny little gap or a fracture on the right side of the metal curtain, which spreads from the bottom halfway up. It's located near the clip that holds the curtain. This gap cannot be seen while the frame is fully advanced because it hides just behind the right border of the frame. But if you slowly advance the frame and WITH your flashlight behind the curtain you can easily see it, as it leaks the light. I've a;ready shot a test roll, and - not surprisingly at all - the light leaks are evident. Not dramatic ones (which i've seen in the topic https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=160858 )
I will attach the photos of the curtain and the scans i've got.
The curtains don't seem to be wrinkled that much. The camera itself works well. The damage of the curtains wasn't mentioned by the seller and wasn't evident on the photos on eBay. As i live in Russia, the postage has been delivered 71 days, so the "return window has closed", the eBay says (its was 30 days actually..)
I would like to hear your opinions on how to fix it. A user "nukecoke" said he "taped" that gap and it was fine. I'm still a bit afraid and not sure it's the right option. Can it somehow be repaired? Any patch glued on that gap? Or maybe replace the metal curtains with clothed ones? (not sure it would be easy here in Russia..) Maybe some of you have faced the same problem and you know the answer.
Thanks in advance,
Anton.

The scans i've got with the light leak:
https://ibb.co/L1vRv7M
https://ibb.co/p6DVwpY

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Did you pay via PayPal and if so what is the current time period for making a claim directly with them, if possible? Have you been in touch with the seller? The only way that you will find out how motivated they may be to help at this late juncture, is if you let them know.

There may be certain temporary repairs that might make the camera usable for a while, the hard truth however is that the only way to permanently repair the fault, is by fitting a new curtain(s).
Welcome to RFF.

 

[GMOG]

I've got a Canon P that came to me with the same cracked 1st curtain problem. In my case the crack lengthened quickly and the curtain broke off entirely.

I'd ask the seller for partial refund. I've bought a few things from Japan that were described as "near mint" but had significant problems. The sellers were reasonable and apologetic when I asked for partial refunds. I got a couple good deals on gear I repaired myself.

 

[Mackinaw]

I'd dab on some liquid rubber and see if that closes the gap. It may take more than one try. Good luck.

Jim B.

 

[bluesun267]

I would definitely demand a complete refund. Seller may genuinely have been unaware of it, but none the less it's not the kind of fault that I would settle for partial refund (unless my cost ended up being less than $30ish 🙂 It's basically a parts camera.

 

[Phil_F_NM]

Send it back. No question.

Phil Forrest

 

[rfaspen]

My understanding is that rubber glue doesn't work with these metal curtains. It's true that the only real repair is curtain replacement, I would look further into the tape idea you mentioned. I would also concur with others above that your camera is anything but near mint with such a defect. A refund, return, partial refund, or something is ethical.

 

[Anton Stek]

Thank you all for being so responsive!

I agree that the best option would be to get a complete refund. I wrote the seller today and he said that complete refund is possible but it would take time because the money will be sent only once he gets the camera safely back (it took 70 days from Japan to Russia..) So it's a long story deal, not sure I have enough patience for that. He also said that he'll refund a complete repair fee if it would be possible to get repaired here in Saint Petersburg in Russia, where I live. I find it a bit better option.
I've met an old man today who's in this camera repair business from the 60's, and he said there are a few ways to solve it:

1. the best option - to find a "donor" camera (Canon 7 or P, 7 would just cost less) and take the curtains off it and put it on my P. Sounds good and durable, but the price of Canon 7 here in Russia is about 130-150 $ because no-one sells donor cameras in bad condition. All the cameras are quite okay and that's why they're pricey.

2. to change the curtain with the clothed one, just like on Leica or Zorki/FED. The repair man said it wouldn't affect the curtain transport and the shutter mechanism. This option in my opinion is optimal. But the repair man isn't quite sure it's technically possible.

3. the last and the least convenient option is to use a "patch" from a curtain of a soviet camera Kiev 88 or Salut which was made of some kind of foil material and to glue it on this gap. The repair man says it would last long but he agrees that aesthetically it's not an option for a camera like this and i'll feel myself a bit defective once I open the back door and there's this ugly patch right on the curtain 🙂
The glue in case of metal curtains is not an option, unfortunatelly.

Eventually the repair man took a camera for thinking over this problem for a day or two and said he will hit me back as an idea is born. I'll reach out to a couple of other repair men here in my city. I'll tell you what kind of decision would be offered.
Hope to get it fixed here in my city and get a complete repair fee by the seller. I don't mind the clothed curtains on my camera actually. But sending the camera back, waiting for the refund would kill me. Plus there are no Canon P's sold here in Russia, a few Canon 7's - yes, but they cost just as much as P, and P is a better option for me in all the ways (i've tried them both in my hands). So even with a complete money refund and the willing to get a P I would have to reach out to these japanese "near mint" cameras..
Thank you all once again. Feels a bit easier to understand I'm not that lonely with these damaged curtains problem.

-Anton.

 

[newst]

Buy yourself a roll of aluminum (or aluminium) foil tape. Cut out a rectangle that will cover the damage and enough of the undamaged curtain to ensure it will stay in place (guess, it will either work permanently or you will have to install a larger piece). It will be a lot less expensive than replacing the curtain.

 

[Phil_F_NM]

Yeah, I was just about to say, since you know the curtain will need replacing anyway, you could use either aluminum or copper foil tape. I have stuck some copper foil tape on a few things here and the only way it's coming off is by deliberate scraping with a sharp blade. You may get a few rolls of film out of it then you can send it out to your repair guy.

Phil Forrest

 

[Anton Stek]

Thanks again for every advice given here!
A few days has gone and the repair man came to such a conclusion: he doesn't know for sure if clothed curtains option is possible, he considers a "donor metal curtain transplantation" the best option, but he had never done that with this camera either, that's why he advised me to start with a foil tape/patch option as the 1st step repair. If it doesn't work or looks ugly then we can try a metal curtain transplantation. So now I have a question for you guys. Do you know for sure, are the curtains on Canon 7 (and the method they're attached in the camera) the same as on Canon P's? I'm asking that because it's quite likely to find a Canon 7 "donor" in Russia. But I have to be sure the curtains would fit.. Don't need an extra camera that would collect dust 🙂

 

[bluesun267]

While I can't say for certain the curtains between a P and 7 are an identical fit, I'm 99.9% sure they are close enough to work between the 2 models.

On the other hand, I'm questioning why your repair person says he doesn't think cloth curtains will work. They will definitely work and fitting them on a P will be no more problematic than replacing curtains on any other screw mount camera--Leica, Canon, Fed or other brand

 

[Phil_F_NM]

While I can't say for certain the curtains between a P and 7 are an identical fit, I'm 99.9% sure they are close enough to work between the 2 models.

On the other hand, I'm questioning why your repair person says he doesn't think cloth curtains will work. They will definitely work and fitting them on a P will be no more problematic than replacing curtains on any other screw mount camera--Leica, Canon, Fed or other brand

We've seen this issue of fit regarding the thickness of the curtains themselves. there are a few threads here on RFF about changing curtains from one material to another (Leica M with Nikon F shutter curtains) and the big change is that the circumference of the curtain drum changes, which can change the timing of the whole shutter. It can be done, but I've never done it and from what I read it seemed like a giant PITA. Probably more money in repair cost than the camera is worth overall.

Phil Forrest

 

[bluesun267]

Ok, I just checked my P and 7, and while the overall dimensions appear the same, the method of affixing the curtain to the end bar is different.

[/IMG]

As you can see from the gallery photo, the P (bottom) uses the 'fold over' method and the 7 (top) uses a crimp.

The problem with transplanting a 7 curtain into a P is you have to take the whole assembly--bars & tapes--and reattach it to the P drums as it would be pretty impossible to remove those metal curtains without damaging them. Even removing the whole assembly is asking for a lot of trouble.

If you simply replace the P curtain with cloth curtain material, you can remove the old curtain and leave the bar/tapes intact, which makes the job much easier. New cloth curtain material is available from several sources so scavenging one from another camera is not necessary.

 

[Anton Stek]

Thank you! I’ll give this information to my repairman! Hope to get the P’s curtain replaced with cloth ones in further perspective.

 

[Beemermark]

I've got a Canon P that came to me with the same cracked 1st curtain problem. In my case the crack lengthened quickly and the curtain broke off entirely.

I'd ask the seller for partial refund. I've bought a few things from Japan that were described as "near mint" but had significant problems. The sellers were reasonable and apologetic when I asked for partial refunds. I got a couple good deals on gear I repaired myself.

This is by far and away the best advice on here. Tell the seller that you can't return it because of the excessive delay in shipping and thus it's outside eBay's return policy. Ask him politely if he'll consider a full or partial refund. Send him pictures not only of the shutter but of the shipping receipts. Most (if not all) sellers will make things right. Remember, camera shops buy cameras on a penny for a dollar. So it's not like they will take a huge loss.

Anything you add to the shutter (foil, rubber, etc) will increase the weight and change the shutter speed.

 

[Anton Stek]

Hello everyone in this thread!
Well, the story with this damaged Canon P ended, not in that positive way though. I would prefer a permanent solution of the problem in a way of changing the curtain to the cloth one, but two repairmen independently said they're not sure they would succeed. Don't think it would be technically impossible, they just hadn't repaired this cameras ever, that's why they didn't want to ruin everything. In the worst scenario I'd end up with a completely damaged camera that a seller wouldn't want to get back. That's why I decided to send it back and get a money refund (as many of you offered in the very beginning). So today the camera flew back to Japan and I've ordered a Canon 7 here in Russia, the one I can check completely in the post office. I'll try to become friends with this one and hope one day I'll be back with the fully working Canon P. Thank you everyone for the advices, it was an enlightening story for me. Good luck with your shots and cameras. See you 😉

 

[farlymac]

Hello everyone in this thread!
Well, the story with this damaged Canon P ended, not in that positive way though. I would prefer a permanent solution of the problem in a way of changing the curtain to the cloth one, but two repairmen independently said they're not sure they would succeed. Don't think it would be technically impossible, they just hadn't repaired this cameras ever, that's why they didn't want to ruin everything. In the worst scenario I'd end up with a completely damaged camera that a seller wouldn't want to get back. That's why I decided to send it back and get a money refund (as many of you offered in the very beginning). So today the camera flew back to Japan and I've ordered a Canon 7 here in Russia, the one I can check completely in the post office. I'll try to become friends with this one and hope one day I'll be back with the fully working Canon P. Thank you everyone for the advices, it was an enlightening story for me. Good luck with your shots and cameras. See you 😉

That's the best move to make, Anton. The 7 is not much different than the P in handling. It just has that meter getting in the way (because most of them no longer work, or are not very accurate).

PF