mjm6
Established
Greetings Canon shooters,
My newest camera apprived... a P!
It's in pretty good shape overall, except for the engravings the seller didn't mention or show in the photographs. The engravings are neatly done and reasonably small, but I would not have agreed to the selling price had I known they existed. Can anyone suggest what a fair discount should be for an engraved body? $50? $75? More?
It came with a 50mm 1.4 Mark 1 lens (no meter scale on the barrel). I saw the recent discussion on that lens, and I'm wondering if anyone at this point has done a comparison between the Mark 1 and Mark 2 models for performance purposes? If they are indeed the same optical design, then there should be no differences, other than the small variation in single sample variability.
It came with a P meter, but the needle seems to be a bit sticky, and the low light cell (the white setting) seems to be inoperative. I'm going to open up the meter and see what I can see. Are there any specific issues I need to be aware of with the meter? I don't want to damage it any more that it already is.
The viewfinder and rangefinder seem to be bright and working properly, but as people have said, the 35mm lines are not really visible with glasses on. This makes me wonder whether a different camera (like an M2) may be a better camera for 35mm lenses? Wider than that would require an accessory viewfinder, but if it is possible to have a solid coupled 35mm coverage in a camera like an M2, then I would probabaly entertain the idea a bit. Can anyone comment on that? I'm also open to the idea of an M2 because that will then permit me to have to option of getting M mount lenses in the future.
Thanks,
---Michael
My newest camera apprived... a P!
It's in pretty good shape overall, except for the engravings the seller didn't mention or show in the photographs. The engravings are neatly done and reasonably small, but I would not have agreed to the selling price had I known they existed. Can anyone suggest what a fair discount should be for an engraved body? $50? $75? More?
It came with a 50mm 1.4 Mark 1 lens (no meter scale on the barrel). I saw the recent discussion on that lens, and I'm wondering if anyone at this point has done a comparison between the Mark 1 and Mark 2 models for performance purposes? If they are indeed the same optical design, then there should be no differences, other than the small variation in single sample variability.
It came with a P meter, but the needle seems to be a bit sticky, and the low light cell (the white setting) seems to be inoperative. I'm going to open up the meter and see what I can see. Are there any specific issues I need to be aware of with the meter? I don't want to damage it any more that it already is.
The viewfinder and rangefinder seem to be bright and working properly, but as people have said, the 35mm lines are not really visible with glasses on. This makes me wonder whether a different camera (like an M2) may be a better camera for 35mm lenses? Wider than that would require an accessory viewfinder, but if it is possible to have a solid coupled 35mm coverage in a camera like an M2, then I would probabaly entertain the idea a bit. Can anyone comment on that? I'm also open to the idea of an M2 because that will then permit me to have to option of getting M mount lenses in the future.
Thanks,
---Michael
djon
Well-known
Hard to evaluate the price impact, if any, of the engraving in the context of a non-working meter and the 50 (presumably fine glass?). I think the basic body's reliably worth $300 assuming the shutter's only faintly wrinkled and there aren't any significant dings. That describes one of mine, the other has a near-wrinkle-free shutter but has a light top ding and is crudely engraved, back and bottom. I'd have paid $300 for it, if I'd known how good the shutter was...didn't care about cosmetics...but I paid "well under $200."
IIf I get an M for 35, I'll keep the Ps because they handle better than old Ms and are just as good finder-wise with 21, 25, maybe 28, 50 and 100.
I like having multiple bodies because I like to keep color and b&W both readily available, or because I want to switch quickly between lenses with the same film...eg keeping the 25 relatively permanently on one body and 35 or 50 on the other.
Both my Ps have loose accessory shoe fits with Leica, Canon, and CV finders (risk of loss)...I think that's the way they were designed...but they can be shimmed for secure fits with a properly cut piece of film.
Currently I'm trying to learn how to relatively accurately estimate 35mm viewfinder coverage...may succeed, but if it's critical I use a Leica bright frame finder. I don't consider myself a "street shooter" at all, do care about reasonably well-framed images, don't like to frame loosely and crop as much as I have been while learning about the P's 35mm limitations/realities. Use of a good external finder eliminates that problem, but of course the camera's not as sleek that way. Still, it's smaller than CV and it's more rugged.
The best M for me would be an M6 because I'd want the internal meter. Which might tempt me away from my Ps, changing my whole outlook :-(
IIf I get an M for 35, I'll keep the Ps because they handle better than old Ms and are just as good finder-wise with 21, 25, maybe 28, 50 and 100.
I like having multiple bodies because I like to keep color and b&W both readily available, or because I want to switch quickly between lenses with the same film...eg keeping the 25 relatively permanently on one body and 35 or 50 on the other.
Both my Ps have loose accessory shoe fits with Leica, Canon, and CV finders (risk of loss)...I think that's the way they were designed...but they can be shimmed for secure fits with a properly cut piece of film.
Currently I'm trying to learn how to relatively accurately estimate 35mm viewfinder coverage...may succeed, but if it's critical I use a Leica bright frame finder. I don't consider myself a "street shooter" at all, do care about reasonably well-framed images, don't like to frame loosely and crop as much as I have been while learning about the P's 35mm limitations/realities. Use of a good external finder eliminates that problem, but of course the camera's not as sleek that way. Still, it's smaller than CV and it's more rugged.
The best M for me would be an M6 because I'd want the internal meter. Which might tempt me away from my Ps, changing my whole outlook :-(
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back alley
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john, if you're gonna sell that 'well under $200' p let me know, please.
hey mike, welcome to the land of p!
yes, the finder is not the best for 35 but give it a try. i just seem to know where the frame ends for my photos and rarely have a surprise when i see the negs. i think it's a matter of time and trust (in yourself). i'm guessing that a m2 would be better for 35 afa framelines but i doubt highly that the actually body is better or better made.
can't help with the meter.
joe
hey mike, welcome to the land of p!
yes, the finder is not the best for 35 but give it a try. i just seem to know where the frame ends for my photos and rarely have a surprise when i see the negs. i think it's a matter of time and trust (in yourself). i'm guessing that a m2 would be better for 35 afa framelines but i doubt highly that the actually body is better or better made.
can't help with the meter.
joe
George S.
How many is enough?
Michael,
It depends on how much you got the set for. Let us know.
It depends on how much you got the set for. Let us know.
mjm6
Established
George S. said:
George,
Well, I got it for a good price ($420 for everything including shipping), but that doesn't mean I couldn't have gotten it for a beter price. I consider the engravings to be a negotiation point that would have given me a better position for a better deal.
Moreso than that, however, I don't like having a little 'detail' like that suprise me, and I consider it somewhat dishonest of the seller to not have indicated them in the conditions.
The 50mm lens looks to be optically perfect, and just needs a little cosmetic clean on the outside. I did notice a little play in the mount that may need looking into. when the lens is mounted on the camera, you can feel a slight movement if you take the barrel between two fingers and push side-to-side on it. It's very sleight, but more so than some of the other lenses I have around, so I noticed it as possibly needing a bit of tightening. The aperture dial is a little stiff as well, but not really a problem, and not worth opening the lens up for at the moment.
I didn't buy the camera as a collector, but as a user, so the engravings don't blow the deal for me at all.
Maybe this would be a good camera to remove the coverplates and paint them black... I was planning to try that with an old FED or Zorki, and if that goes well, maybe I'll do it to this camera as well.
---Michael
back alley
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i'd contact the seller and inform him of your displeasure of having to discover the engravings without benefit of foreknowledge re. bidding amount.
and then i'd ask for 65 bucks off the price and settle for 50.
joe
and then i'd ask for 65 bucks off the price and settle for 50.
joe
mjm6
Established
djon said:
This raises the question for me about lens selection and viewfinders. I have heard that the modern Voigtlander finders are nice, but I have not tried any yet. If I were going to use an external finder for 35mm, what do people recommend looking for in a finder?
-----
When I shot a lot of 35mm film, my most preferred focal length was 24mm. Is anyone making a ~24mm lens that would be suitable for the Canon RF cameras (that includes rangefinder coupling)? The CV lens does not have coupling, and the Canon lenses wider than 35mm are quite rare, and not retrofocus designs. I think those are probaly best left to collectors.
Thanks for the continuing input...
---Michael
thpook
Squawkbox Delux
mjm6 said:
The M2 doesn't have enough eye relief for glasses wearers, unfortunately.
djon
Well-known
M2's a lot more hassle to load, plus it's twice the treasure...I like toting a cheaper camera.
The Voigtlander 25 f4 passes nicely for a 24 unless you need more speed. If you're a tightass, as I tend to be, the Voigtlander finder is an irritant. When I relax, the finder's OK. I'm ultra-happy with this lens but don't trust the finder fully. Sharp lens, vignettes slightly.
I'm about to go out and shoot some E6 with critical framing, using 24 2.8... Canon F1...fussy, precise, view-camera-tightass mode, bracketing etc etc etc. I'd shoot my F1s more except I simply don't like hauling them around, plus I prefer fast rangefinder focus for people pics.
No, I'm not selling my bargain P...
The Voigtlander 25 f4 passes nicely for a 24 unless you need more speed. If you're a tightass, as I tend to be, the Voigtlander finder is an irritant. When I relax, the finder's OK. I'm ultra-happy with this lens but don't trust the finder fully. Sharp lens, vignettes slightly.
I'm about to go out and shoot some E6 with critical framing, using 24 2.8... Canon F1...fussy, precise, view-camera-tightass mode, bracketing etc etc etc. I'd shoot my F1s more except I simply don't like hauling them around, plus I prefer fast rangefinder focus for people pics.
No, I'm not selling my bargain P...
djon
Well-known
Incidentally, I don't think there's much justification for rangefinder focus in the 25mm lens, don't understand why Voigtlander bothers with it in 21. The 25's clickstop focus is VERY nice, once you get the hang of it...and you can always use "in-betweens".
$420 for the Body, even engraved, with a clean 50mm F1.4 lens is a good price. The lens will get $250, the body with the engraving will also get at least $225. What part is engraved? If it is the baseplate, or other part that can be swapped out, you might do it in the future.
You got a good price; if you can get $50 knocked off it would be a great price.
As for 35mm lenses: The Canon VI-L (lever-wind) or Canon VI-T (trigger wind) is the best going for use with glasses. It switches in a 0.7x magnification for 35mm lenses; 1x for 50mm/100mm, and 1.5x for 135mm. The Canon 7 framelines for 35mm are also readily visible with glasses, it is a fixed 0.8x finder with a wider baselength.
I can see the 35mm lines in my M2; I am very nearsighted. It will run at least double the price of the VI-L and three times the price of a Canon 7.
You got a good price; if you can get $50 knocked off it would be a great price.
As for 35mm lenses: The Canon VI-L (lever-wind) or Canon VI-T (trigger wind) is the best going for use with glasses. It switches in a 0.7x magnification for 35mm lenses; 1x for 50mm/100mm, and 1.5x for 135mm. The Canon 7 framelines for 35mm are also readily visible with glasses, it is a fixed 0.8x finder with a wider baselength.
I can see the 35mm lines in my M2; I am very nearsighted. It will run at least double the price of the VI-L and three times the price of a Canon 7.
ScottS
Established
Brian Sweeney said:
It's too bad Canon didn't put framelines in the lower mag finder for tie VI-T/VI-L. 35mm lines in a .6x view, or 35 and 28 together in a .5x view. Since they aren't projected lines, including lines in the low-mag view may not have been too difficult. I've never taken one apart, so I'm not sure if it would have worked.
Scott
Scott,
You have just described the wide-angle "auxiliary" finder built into the Nikon SP. It is a low mag finder with bright-lines for the 35mm and 28mm lens. Parallax correction marks are also present. The main finder is 1x for the 50mm, 85mm, 105mm, and 135mm lenses. They are projected, multi-color lines (one for each lens), with auto-parallax correction.
I will add that parallax correction for 35mm is "minimal", and the VI series is still a great camera for 35mm lenses. I got the roll back from the zoo using the "RF" setting for the 135mm lens. It worked out quite well, with framing where I though it should be. Very accurate focus with the 1.5x.
You have just described the wide-angle "auxiliary" finder built into the Nikon SP. It is a low mag finder with bright-lines for the 35mm and 28mm lens. Parallax correction marks are also present. The main finder is 1x for the 50mm, 85mm, 105mm, and 135mm lenses. They are projected, multi-color lines (one for each lens), with auto-parallax correction.
I will add that parallax correction for 35mm is "minimal", and the VI series is still a great camera for 35mm lenses. I got the roll back from the zoo using the "RF" setting for the 135mm lens. It worked out quite well, with framing where I though it should be. Very accurate focus with the 1.5x.
George S.
How many is enough?
Michael,
Respectfully, I think you should separate the situation into two parts- The "deal" and your feelings.
1.- IMO, you got a really good deal, engravings or no engravings. Look around, check ebay and you'll see some quite high selling prices recently, albeit, (assuming) with no engravings. I'd look at it that for the price of a body, you got the lens and meter "free".
2.- You maybe feel insulted or slightly "taken" by the seller who didn't describe the engravings. If the camera and lens are good, I'd forget about it, or, maybe email him and tell him you didn't like him "forgetting" about one detail. If he offers you some money back, fine. If he doesn't, that's fine too. Life's too short to fret over such things. (Assuming you're otherwise happy with the items). Look at it from his possible view- He thinks the kit is worth say, $700 if there were no engravings, but he feels you got a great "deal" at $420 and you'd realize that and not care about the engravings.
Respectfully, I think you should separate the situation into two parts- The "deal" and your feelings.
1.- IMO, you got a really good deal, engravings or no engravings. Look around, check ebay and you'll see some quite high selling prices recently, albeit, (assuming) with no engravings. I'd look at it that for the price of a body, you got the lens and meter "free".
2.- You maybe feel insulted or slightly "taken" by the seller who didn't describe the engravings. If the camera and lens are good, I'd forget about it, or, maybe email him and tell him you didn't like him "forgetting" about one detail. If he offers you some money back, fine. If he doesn't, that's fine too. Life's too short to fret over such things. (Assuming you're otherwise happy with the items). Look at it from his possible view- He thinks the kit is worth say, $700 if there were no engravings, but he feels you got a great "deal" at $420 and you'd realize that and not care about the engravings.
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mjm6
Established
George,
I understand your point and agree with it, which is why I am not going to insist on returning the camera if he doesn't wish to give me a credit for the discrepancy.
However, you have to realize that I would not have purchased the camera if I didn't think I was getting a fair deal in the first place. I was not desperate to get a 'P', so I could have simply held off until another good deal came along. The engraving pushes the deal I got a little closer to the point where I would have passed on it.
More importantly, I don't want the seller to think he can get away with a deceptive description like that, so I do think there should be some repurcussions to his inaccurate description. If it ends with him knowing that I am displeased with the quality of his description, it may make him more honest the next time around.
The market determines the value of a camera like that, and if his descriptions were accurate, he probably would have gotten even less for the camera than he did. So, while I am not going to dwell on the exchange, I do think it is important that the seller be held to the honesty of his descriptions at least a little. That's all I'm going to do.
---Michael
I understand your point and agree with it, which is why I am not going to insist on returning the camera if he doesn't wish to give me a credit for the discrepancy.
However, you have to realize that I would not have purchased the camera if I didn't think I was getting a fair deal in the first place. I was not desperate to get a 'P', so I could have simply held off until another good deal came along. The engraving pushes the deal I got a little closer to the point where I would have passed on it.
More importantly, I don't want the seller to think he can get away with a deceptive description like that, so I do think there should be some repurcussions to his inaccurate description. If it ends with him knowing that I am displeased with the quality of his description, it may make him more honest the next time around.
The market determines the value of a camera like that, and if his descriptions were accurate, he probably would have gotten even less for the camera than he did. So, while I am not going to dwell on the exchange, I do think it is important that the seller be held to the honesty of his descriptions at least a little. That's all I'm going to do.
---Michael
mjm6
Established
djon said:
djon,
Thanks for the input on this. I understand what you are saying, and this makes me a bit more confortable with zone focusing if I were to get the CV 25mm.
I'm leaaning a bit toward the 21mm though, so that may not be a big issue in the long run.
---Michael
djon
Well-known
I'd love the 21 if I had it, but I bought the 25 instead of 28, not in order to get a super wide lens. I do think 21 is a very natural perspective for humans, but I think it tends to encourage unnatural-looking photos.
In other words, I think 25 (or 24 on my SLR) can look as "normal" as 28, which can look as normal as 35, but that's hard to accomplish with 21. Whew.
In other words, I think 25 (or 24 on my SLR) can look as "normal" as 28, which can look as normal as 35, but that's hard to accomplish with 21. Whew.
George S.
How many is enough?
Michael,
You put it wisely, I agree with your plan!
George
You put it wisely, I agree with your plan!
George