photovdz
Well-known
I'll look with attention...
Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar
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photovdz
Well-known
so here are the results...
Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 2724947 Sonnar 1:1,5 f=5cm T
Metal : heavy
Mount : LTM
Diameter first ring : 47,87
Size first ring : 4,53
Size focusing ring : 17,03
Size knurled part of focusing ring : 7,46 parrallel lines
Small m
Coma separator
Front ring silver
Screw on the focusing ring : 3 + 2 (3 near the front, 2 larger near the rear)
Carl Zeiss Jena Nr.2789989 Sonnar 1:1,5 f=5cm T
Metal : light (bright alloy)
Mount : LTM
Diameter first ring : 48,55
Size first ring : 5,01
Size focusing ring : 14,15
Size knurled part of focusing ring : 6,57 crossed (diamant)
Small m but bizarre serif font
Coma separator
Front ring silver
Screw on the focusing ring : 2 + 1 (2 centered and opposite, 1 identical near the rear)
Carl Zeiss Jena Nr.2859321 Sonnar 1:1,5 f=5cm T
Metal : light (dim alloy) but brass diaf ring
Mount : LTM
Diameter first ring : 47,65
Size first ring : 4,61
Size focusing ring : 15,15
Size knurled part of focusing ring : 7,1 parrallel lines
Small m
Coma separator
Front ring silver
Screw on the focusing ring : 3 + 1 (3 near the front, 1 larger near the rear)
Carl Zeiss Jena Nr.2859393 Sonnar 1:1,5 f=5cm T
Metal : light (dim alloy)
Mount : LTM
Diameter first ring : 48,01
Size first ring : 4,80
Size focusing ring : 15,16
Size knurled part of focusing ring : 7,19 parrallel lines
Small m
Coma separator
Front ring silver
Screw on the focusing ring : 3 + 1 (3 near the front, 1 larger near the rear) (like 9321)
Jupiter 3 (Cyrillic) 1:1,5 F=5cm coated
Metal : light (bright alloy)
Mount : LTM
Diameter first ring : 48,40
Size first ring : 4,51
Size focusing ring : 12,85
Size knurled part of focusing ring : 5,59 parrallel lines
Big M
Comma separator
Front ring silver
Screw on the focusing ring : 3 (3 centered)
Others :
Carl Zeiss Jena Nr 2687429 sonnar 1:2 f=5cm T
Sonnar block mounted on what looks like a Industar rigid mount
Carl Zeiss Jena Nr 2714446 biogon 1:2,8 f 3,5cm T
Mount LTM
Ally mount
Not that the focusing ring is attached with the same 3 + 1 screw system
SO... It' seems that Brian spotted the interesting element, the disposition of screw sets on the focusing ring...
on the "true" Zeiss there is a set of 3 smaller screws near the front end of the focusing ring and 1 or 2 larger or deeper screw near the back of the same ring (and one of these screw is alligned with one of the smaller screw ... like on the picture shown by Brian...) the 2 sets have different purposes...
on the Jupiter the screws at the back have vanished... and the 3 main screws are centered on the ring...
on the bizarre lens... there are 2 opposite screws at the front end and one at the back end... with supposedly two different purposes...
the biogon lens has a somewhat similar disposition with the two sets of screws...
So I may be right to state that the bizarly knurled lenses are not jup based... but probably more a préjup system...
we know need someone's 1,5 ZK LTM to see if our analysis is right.
Carl Zeiss Jena Nr. 2724947 Sonnar 1:1,5 f=5cm T
Metal : heavy
Mount : LTM
Diameter first ring : 47,87
Size first ring : 4,53
Size focusing ring : 17,03
Size knurled part of focusing ring : 7,46 parrallel lines
Small m
Coma separator
Front ring silver
Screw on the focusing ring : 3 + 2 (3 near the front, 2 larger near the rear)
Carl Zeiss Jena Nr.2789989 Sonnar 1:1,5 f=5cm T
Metal : light (bright alloy)
Mount : LTM
Diameter first ring : 48,55
Size first ring : 5,01
Size focusing ring : 14,15
Size knurled part of focusing ring : 6,57 crossed (diamant)
Small m but bizarre serif font
Coma separator
Front ring silver
Screw on the focusing ring : 2 + 1 (2 centered and opposite, 1 identical near the rear)
Carl Zeiss Jena Nr.2859321 Sonnar 1:1,5 f=5cm T
Metal : light (dim alloy) but brass diaf ring
Mount : LTM
Diameter first ring : 47,65
Size first ring : 4,61
Size focusing ring : 15,15
Size knurled part of focusing ring : 7,1 parrallel lines
Small m
Coma separator
Front ring silver
Screw on the focusing ring : 3 + 1 (3 near the front, 1 larger near the rear)
Carl Zeiss Jena Nr.2859393 Sonnar 1:1,5 f=5cm T
Metal : light (dim alloy)
Mount : LTM
Diameter first ring : 48,01
Size first ring : 4,80
Size focusing ring : 15,16
Size knurled part of focusing ring : 7,19 parrallel lines
Small m
Coma separator
Front ring silver
Screw on the focusing ring : 3 + 1 (3 near the front, 1 larger near the rear) (like 9321)
Jupiter 3 (Cyrillic) 1:1,5 F=5cm coated
Metal : light (bright alloy)
Mount : LTM
Diameter first ring : 48,40
Size first ring : 4,51
Size focusing ring : 12,85
Size knurled part of focusing ring : 5,59 parrallel lines
Big M
Comma separator
Front ring silver
Screw on the focusing ring : 3 (3 centered)
Others :
Carl Zeiss Jena Nr 2687429 sonnar 1:2 f=5cm T
Sonnar block mounted on what looks like a Industar rigid mount
Carl Zeiss Jena Nr 2714446 biogon 1:2,8 f 3,5cm T
Mount LTM
Ally mount
Not that the focusing ring is attached with the same 3 + 1 screw system
SO... It' seems that Brian spotted the interesting element, the disposition of screw sets on the focusing ring...
on the "true" Zeiss there is a set of 3 smaller screws near the front end of the focusing ring and 1 or 2 larger or deeper screw near the back of the same ring (and one of these screw is alligned with one of the smaller screw ... like on the picture shown by Brian...) the 2 sets have different purposes...
on the Jupiter the screws at the back have vanished... and the 3 main screws are centered on the ring...
on the bizarre lens... there are 2 opposite screws at the front end and one at the back end... with supposedly two different purposes...
the biogon lens has a somewhat similar disposition with the two sets of screws...
So I may be right to state that the bizarly knurled lenses are not jup based... but probably more a préjup system...
we know need someone's 1,5 ZK LTM to see if our analysis is right.
Last edited:
My 1949 ZK Sonnar is almost identical to my late German LTM Sonnar.
From the thread I did on it on ziforums.com
No question that this lens is made from German parts. Some minor construction differences: NO set screw holding the rear optics fixture in place, no hidden set screw holding the name ring in place. Material is the same as the Wartime LTM Sonnars.
It looks like this lens started out as Zeiss SN 2726739.
The plastic case that it came in, compared with a J-3 case on the Left.
Lens compared with a Wartime Zeiss LTM Sonnar.
Serial Number, note that it looks like a J-3 SN.
The first ZK's had "1948" and then a SN.
Rear module has hand engraved numbers like a J-3. German LTM Sonnars do not have these extra markings, just the machine stamped lens SN.
Big "M" and two Set Screws as in a Wartime LTM Sonnar.
The larger of the tewo screws is the Stop for close-focus and infinity. The J-3 does not use this second set screw.
Not sure if the rear cap is original, but it probably is. Shows who made the lens, KMZ.
Optical Performance of the lens is on par with my 272 series Sonnar in LTM.
I just received my early 1953 KMZ Jupiter-3, and will be rebuilding it. German glass in a Russian mount.
From the thread I did on it on ziforums.com
No question that this lens is made from German parts. Some minor construction differences: NO set screw holding the rear optics fixture in place, no hidden set screw holding the name ring in place. Material is the same as the Wartime LTM Sonnars.
It looks like this lens started out as Zeiss SN 2726739.
The plastic case that it came in, compared with a J-3 case on the Left.
Lens compared with a Wartime Zeiss LTM Sonnar.
Serial Number, note that it looks like a J-3 SN.
The first ZK's had "1948" and then a SN.
Rear module has hand engraved numbers like a J-3. German LTM Sonnars do not have these extra markings, just the machine stamped lens SN.
Big "M" and two Set Screws as in a Wartime LTM Sonnar.
The larger of the tewo screws is the Stop for close-focus and infinity. The J-3 does not use this second set screw.
Not sure if the rear cap is original, but it probably is. Shows who made the lens, KMZ.
Optical Performance of the lens is on par with my 272 series Sonnar in LTM.
I just received my early 1953 KMZ Jupiter-3, and will be rebuilding it. German glass in a Russian mount.
photovdz
Well-known
I perfecly agree
the two set of screw can be discrimated by their position on the focusing ring...
Zeiss : one set in front (usually 3 screw), and the second set (1 or 2 screws) for close focus and infinity at the back
J3 : one set centered
the problem is that the knurled one has two set of screws :
one (2 screws) centered on the focusing ring like a jup, and the second (1 screw) at the rear end serving for closefocus and infinity setting...
the plot thickens ;-)
as for age : 272 is early wartime, and 285 is end of the war and not after the end (there is a paper of regularisation of a set with a 285 Sonnar dated August 45, official US military paper allowing LT xy to keep in his possession a leica IIIc with a set of biogon, sonnar 1,5 and sonnar 85 (we suppose LTM) as war trophy... readable copy on the zicg group.
the two set of screw can be discrimated by their position on the focusing ring...
Zeiss : one set in front (usually 3 screw), and the second set (1 or 2 screws) for close focus and infinity at the back
J3 : one set centered
the problem is that the knurled one has two set of screws :
one (2 screws) centered on the focusing ring like a jup, and the second (1 screw) at the rear end serving for closefocus and infinity setting...
the plot thickens ;-)
as for age : 272 is early wartime, and 285 is end of the war and not after the end (there is a paper of regularisation of a set with a 285 Sonnar dated August 45, official US military paper allowing LT xy to keep in his possession a leica IIIc with a set of biogon, sonnar 1,5 and sonnar 85 (we suppose LTM) as war trophy... readable copy on the zicg group.
photovdz
Well-known
I also own 2726483 on contax mount... came on a late contaxIII Gnumbered...
and is almost 90% heavy metal
And ---- 2936226 wich is a F2 in Contax mount... that escaped gulag ;-) (heavy metal barrel, Zeiss 100%)
also ZK F2 1948 002522 (but I still need to open it to see the german part, there is a smell of fake...may be a rebadged jup8...)
and is almost 90% heavy metal
And ---- 2936226 wich is a F2 in Contax mount... that escaped gulag ;-) (heavy metal barrel, Zeiss 100%)
also ZK F2 1948 002522 (but I still need to open it to see the german part, there is a smell of fake...may be a rebadged jup8...)
photovdz
Well-known
one of the last... but there is certainly a production in (and around) the factory later, hence the official evidence about a 285..... lens produced before August 45 and captured by a american officer (captured and not sold to...)
Of course, we are talking about 65+ year old lenses.
When I found the "272" series SN stamped into the ZK lenses, I thought it very odd. I do not think that it was retro-fitted at a later date as there is no hole in it for the set screw. All of the other lenses that I've seen in this batch had a set screw to hold the rear module into the optics fixture, and a hidden set screw for the name ring under the aperture ring. I would "surmise" that it was an unused spare part that was scooped up and used in Russia. My 285 series lenses also has these extra set screws, "extra" as the uncoated 5cm F1.5 lenses do not have them. They seem to have come into the design when the "T" coated lenses with the lighter alloy mounts were used. My 267 series Contax Mount "T" coated lens also has them. I'm lucky to have looked before taking the spanner to the namering. I was used to the uncoated lenses which did not have them, and the namering comes off with just the spanner.
When I found the "272" series SN stamped into the ZK lenses, I thought it very odd. I do not think that it was retro-fitted at a later date as there is no hole in it for the set screw. All of the other lenses that I've seen in this batch had a set screw to hold the rear module into the optics fixture, and a hidden set screw for the name ring under the aperture ring. I would "surmise" that it was an unused spare part that was scooped up and used in Russia. My 285 series lenses also has these extra set screws, "extra" as the uncoated 5cm F1.5 lenses do not have them. They seem to have come into the design when the "T" coated lenses with the lighter alloy mounts were used. My 267 series Contax Mount "T" coated lens also has them. I'm lucky to have looked before taking the spanner to the namering. I was used to the uncoated lenses which did not have them, and the namering comes off with just the spanner.
This is the mechanism on a Jupiter-3 (this one is a 1953 KMZ lens) that takes the place of that second set screw. I like the design on the J-3 better. It is easier to reset the helical in the mount to control the RF Cam with respect to the Distance Scale. I've had some that were off, reset the helical in the mount, remount the distance scale of the focus ring to match it, then collimate. It's easier to make all three (RF, Scale, and Actual Focus) agree on the Jupiter-3 than it is on the Zeiss lens. To do the same thing on the Zeiss, you need to tap out a new hole in the focus ring for that second function set screw.
Just to add, I see a test of the four KMZ J-3's in LTM, the ZK, two Zeiss Sonnars in LTM, and the "transition lens" coming up very soon. OOOhhhh excitement....
jmkelly
rangefinder user
Brian - are you sure all the T (coated) lenses had a set screw for the trim ring? I am very sure when I pulled the trim ring from Contax-mount 28589xx it came off without a struggle. I wish I had taken photos - I don't recall a hole for a missing screw on mine, but I suppose there could have been one there.
I'm not sure about all of them- but I believe those that were "properly finished" did have them. I've seen some 285 lenses that were probably completed in Russia, and they did not have them. One did not even have the distance scale engraved on it!
photovdz
Well-known
photovdz
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photovdz
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photovdz
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photovdz
Well-known
The one with the aperture ring withoutchrome- bizarre! I've seen one without a distance scale, and it could never have worked correctly. The helical was jammed into the mount and the RF Cam was wrong. The helical would not come out, the optics module would not come out, so I polished the Cam down to get it right.
