Sparrow
Veteran
... I would have thought "real discussion" would be best achieved with simple dialogue rather than the diatribe we often get ... no?
Cartier-Bresson - Surrealism and communism!
- Thread starter RichC
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Replies 269
- Views 254K
... I would have thought "real discussion" would be best achieved with simple dialogue rather than the diatribe we often get ... no?
Ansel
Well-known
What I love about HCB is his humility. He does not consider he did anything special. IN his own words he is just another human being with a sensitive eye (and a camera).
I think if you observe his subject matter you can clearly discern his politics - he didn't take photos of supermodels. In my example above, he covered King George the whatever's coronation and his best image was of the crowd! That is where his sensitivities lie. Ordinary folks on the street, prostitutes, kids, etc.
I think if you observe his subject matter you can clearly discern his politics - he didn't take photos of supermodels. In my example above, he covered King George the whatever's coronation and his best image was of the crowd! That is where his sensitivities lie. Ordinary folks on the street, prostitutes, kids, etc.
YYV_146
Well-known
So what if he is a communist? Some very respectable folks in the academic community believe in certain versions of communism. It is not so ridiculous and I can see where their views come from. Of course, HCB might not have been so sophisticated in justifying his beliefs. Doesn't matter, though.
The number of frames he shoots in a day is also irrelevant. My favorite street photographer is Garry Winogrand and by all accounts he works like a madman with his M4s. I don't believe anyone can be capable of reaching anything close to a 80 or 90% keep rate, even if they had all the modern technologies such as stabilization and autofocus.
The number of frames he shoots in a day is also irrelevant. My favorite street photographer is Garry Winogrand and by all accounts he works like a madman with his M4s. I don't believe anyone can be capable of reaching anything close to a 80 or 90% keep rate, even if they had all the modern technologies such as stabilization and autofocus.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
In any case, as others have said, it generally makes sense to separate the artist and the art. Yes, we can accept that some things influenced HCB (just as they influence all of us) and therefore affect what we shoot and why we shoot it -- as well as what we see in the pictures. But painting HCB as an evil godless commie and a cat's-paw of invariably evil regimes is missing the point somewhat.
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
DNG
Film Friendly
I don't think 1 photo every minute is [machine-gun style].
2 rolls an hour = 72 divided by 60, is just one photo every 45s or so. I rounded up to one per minute.
OK, you go out on the street for 3 hours (pick a place you like for action etc)..
after 3 hours, how many did you take? I'd bet around 150 to 200. That is about 1 photo every minute.
You are right, it doesn't matter how many photos he shot in a day.. it is just an interesting fact. When I go out with my film camera and 2 rolls..
I may run out of film in an hour and a half.... most of the time, it is between 1.5 and 2 hours, and I am done.
With my Digital, in that same time span I may shoot 100-125 photos instead of 72 (about 1 every minute)..
So regardless of my camera or day.... I shoot an average of 100 photos in 1.5-2 hour time frame with Street Photography.
If I shoot for 5-6 hours (as HCB did) that would be [for me] 250-300 photos a day... at less then 1 per minute... hardly machine-gun style.
So, that Art Student who was invited to stay with HCB for a few days, probably saw an average use of film in any day of HCB.
Which was 12+ rolls on a day out, at about 72 shots an hour... you do the math..........
That is out for at least 6 hours of shooting on the streets, as an average.
Here is the link, in case you missed it
Here is the Link MY TIME WITH HENRI CARTIER-BRESSON
----------------------------
As I stated a few times.....
I think his "Keeper" Rate is just like anyone else with a trained eye.... 10-15%..... 100-150 per thousand. (3-6 per roll)
Sparrow
Veteran
600 photos is 16 cassettes, it takes 4-5 minutes to load and trim 1 minute to load into a camera and once finished about 2-3 to rewind and unload ... that's over 2 hours of down-time every single day ...
... add that to the two hour lunch (he was french after all) and the old chap would have had to get his skates on the rest of the time
... add that to the two hour lunch (he was french after all) and the old chap would have had to get his skates on the rest of the time
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
The real truth was that Henri Cartier Bresson was actually a Jesuit priest with a camera and a whole bunch of film cassettes in his pockets, who happened to have a knack for taking good photographs.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
Photography is a discipline and most of the greats like Bresson shot a lot and did it almost every day. Meyerowitz said the only way to stay sharp and keep you edge was to get out and do it as often as possible. Winogrand was said to have shot at least 6 rolls a day, everyday. Boogie shoots everyday. The machine gun approach is the approach of just taking photographs indiscriminately without rhyme or reason. None of these photographers are guilty of that. That would be the guy with 10 FPS that just points the camera and holds down the shutter in hopes of getting something. Didn't Frank shoot over 20K images that got edited down to The Americans. To keep the vision and the reflexes sharp you need to do it. I know when I haven't been out for a while I first have trouble seeing and then when I do see the timing is off for a while.
As far as politics again the late 20s up through WWII were very different times and many artist and photographers were playing with socialist ideas. Franks book The Americans at first didn't sell well because some of the McCarty faithful labeled it socialist. I have also read that many of the commie witch hunters labeled Siskind's early work with the Photo League as commie propaganda. Adams would be called a commie tree hugger today because of his attitude that come through in this statement.
"It is horrifying that we have to fight our own government to save the environment." - Ansel Adams
The world was a very different place after the crash of 29 and what followed. Capitalism was being questioned all over the world even in the US. In Europe, because they faired far worse than the US in the years that followed, it gave the rise to Hitler, Mussolini and also anti capitalistic ideals such as the ones that were held by many like Bresson and many others. It still doesn't change the fact they created amazing work.
As far as politics again the late 20s up through WWII were very different times and many artist and photographers were playing with socialist ideas. Franks book The Americans at first didn't sell well because some of the McCarty faithful labeled it socialist. I have also read that many of the commie witch hunters labeled Siskind's early work with the Photo League as commie propaganda. Adams would be called a commie tree hugger today because of his attitude that come through in this statement.
"It is horrifying that we have to fight our own government to save the environment." - Ansel Adams
The world was a very different place after the crash of 29 and what followed. Capitalism was being questioned all over the world even in the US. In Europe, because they faired far worse than the US in the years that followed, it gave the rise to Hitler, Mussolini and also anti capitalistic ideals such as the ones that were held by many like Bresson and many others. It still doesn't change the fact they created amazing work.
Bill Clark
Veteran
Took in this movie last night:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monuments_Men
About art and those that worked to save it for us to enjoy.
I recommend taking time to see this picture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monuments_Men
About art and those that worked to save it for us to enjoy.
I recommend taking time to see this picture.
NY_Dan
Well-known
DNG -- cool article by Ishu Patel. If I had the good fortune to shoot in India, I wouldn't find it difficult to shoot a roll per half hour. This doesn't mean that HCB shot at the same rate everywhere he went. I liked the mental image of HCB rolling his own film in changing bag and counting in French. That's the photo I'd want to see!
airfrogusmc
Veteran
Though very different photographers seems they had some things in common.
"I know the importance of highly trained awareness of the "moment" and the immediate and intuitive response of the photographer. It should be obvious to all that photographers whose images possess character and quality have attained them only by continued practice and total dedication to the medium." - Ansel Adams
"For me, content cannot be separated from form. By form, I mean the rigorous organisation of the interplay of surfaces, lines and values. It is in this organisation alone that our conceptions and emotions become concrete and communicable. In photography, visual organisation can stem only from a developed instinct." - Henri Cartier-Bresson
"I know the importance of highly trained awareness of the "moment" and the immediate and intuitive response of the photographer. It should be obvious to all that photographers whose images possess character and quality have attained them only by continued practice and total dedication to the medium." - Ansel Adams
"For me, content cannot be separated from form. By form, I mean the rigorous organisation of the interplay of surfaces, lines and values. It is in this organisation alone that our conceptions and emotions become concrete and communicable. In photography, visual organisation can stem only from a developed instinct." - Henri Cartier-Bresson
__--
Well-known
I guess all I'm addressing, or ridiculing, is the idea of the machine-gun style of shooting street photography in bursts with digital cameras, as manifested by guys saying, "I've shot 30,000 pictures in the last two months with my new camera." Robert Frank shot 28,000 pictures for the 80-photo book, The Amercans, which, assuming he shot 300 days per year in those two years, would mean 28,000÷600, or 47 frames a day, or only 1-⅓ rolls per day. That is very far from an average of one shot per minute, and reflects the more thoughtful (not sure this is the right word) approach of someone like HCB, who would sometimes spot a location and stand around waiting for people to come into the scene.
—Mitch/Paris
Bangkok Hysteria
[Direct download link for PDF file of book project]
airfrogusmc
Veteran
Bresson approach is evident in his work. I got a chance to see the exhibit The Modern Century: Henri Cartier Bresson whwn it was here at the Art Institute of Chicago a few years back and to say that Bresson was indiscrimatley taking photographs is insane. A developed instinct is how most of the really greats work and that is the ability t osee the shot in an instant and thought doesn't enter the creative process. Thought is done before and after but usually never during creating. It's usually just a subconscious response from a developed instinct.
Does it matter how many sketches a painter makes or how many actual revisions he makes on a canvas to get the painting to a finished form? No way. All that matters is the finished work.
It's the same with photographers. It doesn't make any difference how many one takes to get a finished body of work. All that matters is the finished body of work.
Editing (what you leave in or maybe more important what you edit out) is as important as what is shot. It's all part of the process. It make no difference if a photogrpaher had to take 10,000 images to get to where he needs to be or 100. All that matters is he to where he needs to be.
Bresson would wait sometimes he wouldn't. Frank would sometimes wait sometimes he wouldn't. it makes absolutely no difference one way or another only what works for each individual in each situation. it's the what is chosen to be shown that makes all the difference.
Does it matter how many sketches a painter makes or how many actual revisions he makes on a canvas to get the painting to a finished form? No way. All that matters is the finished work.
It's the same with photographers. It doesn't make any difference how many one takes to get a finished body of work. All that matters is the finished body of work.
Editing (what you leave in or maybe more important what you edit out) is as important as what is shot. It's all part of the process. It make no difference if a photogrpaher had to take 10,000 images to get to where he needs to be or 100. All that matters is he to where he needs to be.
Bresson would wait sometimes he wouldn't. Frank would sometimes wait sometimes he wouldn't. it makes absolutely no difference one way or another only what works for each individual in each situation. it's the what is chosen to be shown that makes all the difference.
__--
Well-known
Absolutely, we're saying the same thing.
There is also the idea of "keepers," which people define differently. I consider keepers those pictures that I bother to process: in the film days that meant pictures of which I would make a work print. That would run at somewhere between 5-10%, although there is a lot of "bunching up." Beyond this definition of keepers, there are the pictures that are "significant" in one's judgment — and I couldn't begin to try to define or quantify that.
—Mitch/Paris
Chiang Tung Days
[direct download link for pdf file for Burma book project]
There is also the idea of "keepers," which people define differently. I consider keepers those pictures that I bother to process: in the film days that meant pictures of which I would make a work print. That would run at somewhere between 5-10%, although there is a lot of "bunching up." Beyond this definition of keepers, there are the pictures that are "significant" in one's judgment — and I couldn't begin to try to define or quantify that.
—Mitch/Paris
Chiang Tung Days
[direct download link for pdf file for Burma book project]
Monochrom
Well-known
I think HCB never lived under communism...but he lived over it...so the could experience the sweet part of it...
and communism and surrealism are things that have lots of things in common.
I remember one episode that happened to pol pot when he went to france to study...
He wanted to join the local communist party but the folks there refused him for being nos caucasian...then he had to join the immigrant non white communist party wing of the central one!
If that is not surrealist what can be!
and communism and surrealism are things that have lots of things in common.
I remember one episode that happened to pol pot when he went to france to study...
He wanted to join the local communist party but the folks there refused him for being nos caucasian...then he had to join the immigrant non white communist party wing of the central one!
If that is not surrealist what can be!
airfrogusmc
Veteran
Keepers? I don't even no what that means. I don't even think about it. If an image works for me and the way I see then it works. Many just consider a technically proficient image is a keeper. At this stage of my life and career the basics like exposure, focus, etc are all dependent o what I am trying to say visually. If I want to make a perfectly exposed image that is tack sharp then I suppose 90% would be keepers. If we are talking about images that I think are beyond the obvious and are working in line with the way I see then that would be a very very small # indeed. Adams, even though he shot large format, still shot a lot of negatives a year. Surely not in the # of a 35mm photogrpaher but still a lot of negatives and he said this:
"Twelve significant photographs in any one year is a good crop." - Ansel Adams
Back to the topic, I couldn't care less that a person is this or that politically. All that maters is the work to me. Diego Rivera's, Frida Khalo's, Tina Medotti's, Edward Weston's, Ansel Adams's, Joel Meyerowitz's, Robert Frank's, Picasso's, Monet's, Dali's, Henry Moore's, Bresson's political beliefs are irrelevant to me as long as they created the work. The work is what matters.
"Twelve significant photographs in any one year is a good crop." - Ansel Adams
Back to the topic, I couldn't care less that a person is this or that politically. All that maters is the work to me. Diego Rivera's, Frida Khalo's, Tina Medotti's, Edward Weston's, Ansel Adams's, Joel Meyerowitz's, Robert Frank's, Picasso's, Monet's, Dali's, Henry Moore's, Bresson's political beliefs are irrelevant to me as long as they created the work. The work is what matters.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
It would be interesting to see how many of his photographs we have actually seen. I doubt if I've seen more than a dozen but some of them I've seen over and over again.
And apologies for another one liner but I usually go one step at a time.
Regards, David
It would be interesting to see how many of his photographs we have actually seen. I doubt if I've seen more than a dozen but some of them I've seen over and over again.
And apologies for another one liner but I usually go one step at a time.
Regards, David
airfrogusmc
Veteran
If you had a chance to see the exhibit The Modern Century: Henri Cartier Bresson there were hundreds of photographs plus the magazines the images were in, correspondence of all kinds, contact sheets and one thing that was clear is there was a consistency of vision through all of the work displayed. I think it took me two hours to get through it.
RichC
Well-known
It's worth looking at Cartier-Bresson's book "The Decisive Moment", which not only has a lot of images arranged in series by Cartier-Bresson but also his essay on the essence of his approach. The book is almost a retrospective of his work up to the early 1950s.
The book is long out of print, and even a tatty copy costs hundreds of pounds. I suggest borrowing it. Here in the UK, your local library will borrow a copy from the British Library for you - which is what I did. It's ginormous book - not thick, but 2 feet tall by a foot wide!
The book is long out of print, and even a tatty copy costs hundreds of pounds. I suggest borrowing it. Here in the UK, your local library will borrow a copy from the British Library for you - which is what I did. It's ginormous book - not thick, but 2 feet tall by a foot wide!
Photo_Smith
Well-known
I've seen three exhibitions, the last one 'Europeans' at the Barbican in London-spent the whole day there...
