Casual Photographing at events - Is it poaching?

All this pro thing is balooney. If people want shots or anything else done by amateur and are OK with price/quaility ratio, why limit their choice. One things is if amateurs would fly jets over Atlantics and another is pictures. If pros are fighting amateurs to keep their share then it's bare survival not thing of quality or what. Same way people are free to take a dinner either at mcdonalds or real restaurant - why force them to choose $200 dinner if they are OK with $20 meal?
 
x-ray said:
This is precisely the attitude that's bleeding the pro market by ten thousand cuts. I can see from the remarks that none are pros.

Actually I've made my living as a photographer and been the sole provider for my family for fourteen years now, and yes the boom in people entering the market due to the perceived ease of digital has affected my business, but it's a done deal, the world has changed and no amount of moaning will change it back to how it was.
The way I see it, to remain a professional photographer and distance myself from all these kids with DSLR's and a web site I need to be able to show I'm worth paying the extra for by being better. It's much tougher now just to be seen, but it's never going to settle back to where it once was. Technological advances always shake up the eco system, we just need to get used to it.
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btgc said:
All this pro thing is balooney. If people want shots or anything else done by amateur and are OK with price/quaility ratio, why limit their choice. One things is if amateurs would fly jets over Atlantics and another is pictures. If pros are fighting amateurs to keep their share then it's bare survival not thing of quality or what. Same way people are free to take a dinner either at mcdonalds or real restaurant - why force them to choose $200 dinner if they are OK with $20 meal?
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I think you missed my point. If we're all on a level playing field either paying or not paying taxes then that's fine.

The thinking that it's cool to do anything you want unless you get caught shows the kind of people we've become. Not very sound thinking IMO.

How do you think communities operate, on good intentions and promises? No revenue and no schools and services. You don't think it can happen, you're wrong. No sales tax revenue will result in other taxes like property taxes going up. You want services, the money has to come from somewhere.

Perhaps I and the other professionals should quit collecting and paying taxes so we can compete at a lower cost. Anything goes doesn't it? Each and every service provider should do this then.

I know three people that were caught doing this. One designer and two photographers. Getting caught is one thing you don't want to happen because the tax folks will make you regret the day you bought your camera and set up business. They find people through random audits of businesses. Both the photographers were caught because there was no sales tax added to invoices to companies that should have been taxed.

Individuals dealing with individuals are a different story but they do get caught. There are plenty of us happy to turn them in.

It's true the world has changed and will never return to the old ways. I just see it as very sad that there's such a low level of integrity now.
 
One further thought, up and coming photographers will never have the chance to make any real money in the business like my generation. the dilution of the market by millions of want to make a few buck "Photographers" destroyed that. And as a part of that the quality has dropped to the lowest I've seen in my career. I went to a friend 90th birthday arty last year. My friend and I are the only two master commercial photographers left in our region. My friend finally retired after 70 years of professional service. He had exactly the same comments that the quality level was the lowest he had seen in 70 years.
 
x-ray said:
... that the quality level was the lowest he had seen in 70 years.
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Sounds like sour grape talk from old men who may need to "get a life". If one looks around, and it doesn't take much looking, there is quite a bit of high-quality imaging being done today... by both professionals and amateurs.
 
Gumby said:
Sounds like sour grape talk from old men who may need to "get a life". If one looks around, and it doesn't take much looking, there is quite a bit of high-quality imaging being done today... by both professionals and amateurs.
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I agree.

I make a living from writing - plenty of people trying to undercut me. C'est la vie. Choose a creative profession and you accept risk.
 
Gumby said:
Sounds like sour grape talk from old men who may need to "get a life". If one looks around, and it doesn't take much looking, there is quite a bit of high-quality imaging being done today... by both professionals and amateurs.
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That's a bit insulting don't you think!

There is good work but more trash than anything. Those of us in the industry and that have dedicated our money and our lives to it hate to see whar's happened.

A good friend that's a TV producer and I were discussing this the other day. TV programming has gone the way professional photography has. My friend is 50 years old and worked on some major programming and commented all it takes to be a production company is $10k in gear. All you need is a prosumer digicam, MAC with editing software and a couple of tungsten lights. He said this is brought on by the Youtube generation who have no idea what quality is or was. Same thing here with photography. Three hundred bucks and a computer with photoshop elements and ypur a pro photographer.

I would do some of you good to walk in the shoes of those of us that have spent our lives in the industry. I don't think you's make some of your statements.
 
x-ray said:
That's a bit insulting don't you think!

There is good work but more trash than anything. Those of us in the industry and that have dedicated our money and our lives to it hate to see whar's happened.

A good friend that's a TV producer and I were discussing this the other day. TV programming has gone the way professional photography has. My friend is 50 years old and worked on some major programming and commented all it takes to be a production company is $10k in gear. All you need is a prosumer digicam, MAC with editing software and a couple of tungsten lights. He said this is brought on by the Youtube generation who have no idea what quality is or was. Same thing here with photography. Three hundred bucks and a computer with photoshop elements and ypur a pro photographer.

I would do some of you good to walk in the shoes of those of us that have spent our lives in the industry. I don't think you's make some of your statements.
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No, I don't think it is insulting. Direct, perhaps, but not insulting. Sorry if you took it the wrong way.

Your comparisons are apples-to-oranges if one compares professional TV/cinema to YouTube, just as it is if one compares professional photography of yesterday or today to Uncle Hank and his cell phone camera. Now give Uncle Hank a Hasselblad and maybe he could produce images of comparable quality to professionals... or maybe not.

But trash talking photography just becuase technology makes it easeir than photography was for us in "the good old days", or trash talking images just because "we had to make a lifetime investment in the field and they don't" really does sound like sour grapes. If not that, then just trash talk.

I know you are even mroe insulted now... so let me apologize in advance. I wholeheartedly respect the old tymers and their skills and their committment and their professional heritage/credentials, but would like to also allow for some recognition that image-makers, both professional and amateur, have changed their image making methods but can still do so with quality. Maybe not always, but certainly some of hte time.
 
Most don't really fit that profile. Even the TV programming that I abhor uses professioanl gear and professional techniques and professional personnel. I have several close friends who produce television today and they would agree that characterizations of a bunch of kids with gear from BestBuys is a gross misunderstanding of both television and movie production.
 
Like it or not, photography has a very low barrier to entry in terms of skill. Any profession which does not *require* skill can be swamped with newcomers and also is subject to competition with amateurs. Now, before anyone gets upset, I'm not any way suggesting that professional photographers are unskilled, or even low-skilled, many are of course very talented. However, skill is not *needed*, it's just a bonus.

If you want to be a successful manager, talent is handy. To be a successful CPU designer, enormous talent is required.
 
To address the OP. No it isn't poaching. There will always be people with cell phones, P&S, DSLR's, etc, shooting at events. If you take images that are considered valuable by another, than you are making some $$, just like the pre-established pro. There is nothing wrong with making a bit of money off of a hobby.

FWIW, I always defined amateur as someone who pursues something for pleasure, a business pursuing things for gain, and a professional as someone who is able to deliver the goods in a professional manner, no matter what the obstacles.

x-ray said:
How do you think communities operate, on good intentions and promises? No revenue and no schools and services. You don't think it can happen, you're wrong. No sales tax revenue will result in other taxes like property taxes going up. You want services, the money has to come from somewhere.

Perhaps I and the other professionals should quit collecting and paying taxes so we can compete at a lower cost. Anything goes doesn't it? Each and every service provider should do this then.

Individuals dealing with individuals are a different story but they do get caught. There are plenty of us happy to turn them in.

It's true the world has changed and will never return to the old ways. I just see it as very sad that there's such a low level of integrity now.
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For a long time, many communities were so gloriously civilized that they could and did operate on good intentions, promises, and those who treated others criminally (agression, theft, fraud, murder, etc) were punished appropriately. Civilization is now so advanced that the government can coercively take wealth from the individual to buy power as it sees fit, whether the individual consents or not. There was a time when forceful extraction of labor/productivity/wealth was considered theft, not integrity.

There are many in the world who do not want the second rate services that the government provides... but people such as this do not have a choice. Pay up or lose your income/property/freedom. History has demonstrated repeatedly that restrictions/regulations of the market are a windfall to those in control and a hindrance to those who are small...
 
Would you Tax Paying Professionals prefer that we young amateurs just go to these events take all the pictures we can, return later with prints and then just give them away...
Then, we're not a business, we don't need the license, insurance or any other of that of which you mention...and we're not taking any money out of your pockets...
Eventually, if the pictures are good enough the Clients will vote with their wallets and possibly wait for our free amateurs photos rather than pay for yours...if the pictures are good enough...if not they will continue with yours...for me, I prefer to give them away...not that I couldn't sell them it's just who I am and how I work...
 
Well, my experience is that of xray...but I'll admit that people do speak with their wallets. The problem is they do so, not necessarily because the quality is the same or better, but because the work is cheaper or free.

Up until two or three years ago, I shot pageants. The state competition was a $3K three day weekend for me when I started shooting them about ten years ago. By the time I quit the gross was down to $1300 to $1400. Then I had to pay an assistant, food and hotel for both of us, taxes, etc., plus be out of the studio for those days. I even found one participant had used my photos for her scrap book she had displayed. Only, she hadn't paid for any photos. She had used screen shots and cropped out the proof and logo marks...and told others how to do it.

There were some disappointed clients who were willing to spend money for quality, but they were not enough for me to see a worthwhile profit--or even break even.
 
nikon_sam said:
Would you Tax Paying Professionals prefer that we young amateurs just go to these events take all the pictures we can, return later with prints and then just give them away...
Then, we're not a business, we don't need the license, insurance or any other of that of which you mention...and we're not taking any money out of your pockets...
Eventually, if the pictures are good enough the Clients will vote with their wallets and possibly wait for our free amateurs photos rather than pay for yours...if the pictures are good enough...if not they will continue with yours...for me, I prefer to give them away...not that I couldn't sell them it's just who I am and how I work...
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I have a problem with anyone in any act of making money that feel they're too good to collect and pay taxes and contribute to the community they live in. It's unethical and illegal.

I havd no issue with competition as long as the playing field is level. I make money and run my business like a business. You make money and run your business like a business. Is that unfair or are you special and don't have to comply with the laws?

I started where every one of you are trying to get to. Within the first month of business I did the right thing and obtained my business license and conducted myself as a business. 45+ years later I'm glad I did. If you don't you'll be scraping for nickel and dime jobs and never get the good ones.

Enough said. I know where you're coming from and it's sad.
 
Before I started up I ran into a guy that worked for the IRS. It turned out he was an investigator. He was nice enough to bring me all the brochures and booklets from the IRS. I made sure I was registered and licensed before we did anything further.
 
X-ray...
I guess I didn't make myself clear...I meant to say is would you be okay with us amateurs shooting at the same events but instead of charging for prints/digital files we just give them away...you know, for free...because that's what I do...I'm not in this to make money just photos and to put a smile on people's faces...
If I'm giving them away I don't need a license or insurance nor do I pay any taxes because there's no revenue...
 
I am not sure why you feel there to be a problem. Pro photographers do not have any kind of monopoly on such things unless perhaps the venue / event organizers sell the exclusive rights to one or two such people. (Which has occurred from time to time but most people agree to be bad form). If your photos are good enough for people to want your images, then there is no problem - the customer is always right. If your images are not good enough to sell then arguably you are only making the images for your own fun. Again, no problem. Any photographer who thinks you are doing something wrong is being churlish.So what does the Nike ad say? (The answer is "Just do it")
 
"Just do it", what a great philosophy. Let me sell you a camera then.

You've obviously not read my posts. Do you not grasp where your community gets the money to operate and provide services? Do you understand what would happen if all businesses adopted the "just do it" philosophy? No we don't have a monopoly. It's about doing the right thing and operating inside the law. Get your business license and pay your taxes like an ethical and responsible citizen. When you're acting like a responsible adult and conducting a legitimate business then you're on the same playing field as those that are responsible.

When you're on the same level as all other responsible and ethical businesses you'll quickly realize why pricing is the way it is.

I'm sorry but my parents taught me right and wrong and to do the right thing not " just do it". Who would you rather buy a camera from, the guy that's philosophy is "just do it" or the guy that lives by do the right thing? This is about being a responsible citizen of the community and putting something in rather than only taking out. It's about ethical behavior and not violating the law. It's not about not being able to handle competition. Where would your community be financially if everyone adopted the philosophy "just do it"? I don't think this is what Nike was talking about.

If you're making pix and giving them away then no problem. You're inside the law but if you're taking money and not contributing to the community then there's a problem.
 
x-ray said:
Get your business license and pay your taxes like an ethical and responsible citizen.
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I don't know where you live, but hereabouts you are not supposed to operate small-income part time activities (like selling photographs of the horse shows your partner attends as her hobby to other participants) as a registered business - but you'll have to declare the profit (if any) in the "extra income" field of the tax form. If the turnover is substantial, you may have to register for extended VAT exemption, if it is very substantial, you'll have to pay VAT (which implies having a VAT ID, filling VAT forms every quarter etc.). The requirement to register a business does not start until it becomes your main source of income (so that you drop out of health and social insurance in your other job) or you have employees. But few people succeed at getting past any of these thresholds with a weekend occupation.

Besides, in the field of photography it is far more common that people try to establish a business front that is entirely out of proportion to their negligible (if any) professional activities, to be able to do tax writeoffs on their camera collecting hobby, get a press pass or qualify for the Nikon/Canon pro support programs - your complaint about fake pros cuts either way!
 
I'm sorry X-Ray. I don't see any posts that could be construed as condoning tax avoidance. The posts are encouraging the OP to try his hand at selling his photographs, like anybody generating income it should be declared, that should go without saying.

Obviously there are photographers out there avoiding taxes, which I agree is completely unfair to we photographers who run a legitimate business, but what makes you assume that the OP is set on avoiding them?

I understand the frustrations involved in competing for business against such photographers, or young photographers who undersell their services. So I either have to get better and move to higher ground or get out, because one thing that is certain is it's not going to go back to pre digital days.
 
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