Catastrophic shutter failure

[boilerdoc2]

While I was using my M8 at the LHSA meetings in Rochester last week I noticed a strange corner to corner black out on the LCD. I popped off the lens and something looked very wrong with the shutter curtain. I showed it to Christian Erhardt (Leica USA rep that was present) and he just shook his head and said "That needs to go back to Leica". The M8 had ~6K images on it when the shutter failed. Not a good thing for sure and very disappointing.....
Steve

 

[laptoprob]

Isn't having a dedicated problem forum a tell-tale sign? What's the percentage of problem cameras? Hearing these kind of stories make me definitely not want such a camera. Even if I had the money.
Terrible to have something like this happening to such a young camera.
Having my M2 shutter curtain tear off after some 50 years is quite something different...

 

[ywenz]

laptop: compare the number of failure posts against posts in a forum for one of the popular DSLRs and make the judgment for yourself.

 

[Paul T.]

Sorry to hear this.

It is a standard Copal/Sekonic shutter isn't it? The fact it's found within a Leica doesn't make it any more, or any less, likely to fail than the Copals used in dozens of its DSLR rivals.

 

[Bill Blackwell]

... compare the number of failure posts against posts in a forum for one of the popular DSLRs and make the judgment for yourself.

Well, it seems to me it's all relative. Canon and Nikon collectively produce hundreds of thousands of DSLRs.

Perhaps 30,000 M8s (certainly no more than that) have been produced.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Hearing these kind of stories make me definitely not want such a camera.

The people with problems tend to be louder than the people who are perfectly content. Perfectly content people are accused of being on Leica's payroll.

I'm not on Leica's payroll, but I could make huge headlines with how well the M8 performs. But that would bring another set of problems and surely red-carpet waving for the Leica-bashing bulls.

That said, it is indeed sad to hear the shutter gave in. Did this camera suffer heavy handling? Collapsed lens while tripping the shutter? A foreign element got in there and caused the blades to give in? Much the worse if it just happened to happen out of the blue, for certain.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

laptop: compare the number of failure posts against posts in a forum for one of the popular DSLRs and make the judgment for yourself.

Or the number of posts made on any negative opportunity, and make the judgement for yourself.

 

[jan normandale]

The people with problems tend to be louder than the people who are perfectly content. Perfectly content people are accused of being on Leica's payroll.

I'm not on Leica's payroll, but I could make huge headlines with how well the M8 performs. But that would bring another set of problems and surely red-carpet waving for the Leica-bashing bulls.

That said, it is indeed sad to hear the shutter gave in. Did this camera suffer heavy handling? Collapsed lens while tripping the shutter? A foreign element got in there and caused the blades to give in? Much the worse if it just happened to happen out of the blue, for certain.

Agreed, point taken.

BTW I don't own an M8.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

BTW I don't own an M8.

You should. I've even made one decidedly hard-core "all-film" guy inquire about the price. He borrowed it a few times too many. :angel:

 

[Bill Blackwell]

... I showed it to Christian Erhardt (Leica USA rep that was present) and he just shook his head and said "That needs to go back to Leica" ... very disappointing...

I am sorry for your M8 troubles.

My first M8 (purchased early last summer), although minor compared to this, had a myriad of issues before the seller (Tony Rose at Popflash) replaced it. The second one came out of the box with an RF out of alignment. Rather than having it replaced (Tony offered), I opted to have it repaired. Leica returned it five or six weeks later.

Leica employees appear to be overworked and underpaid. Well, perhaps overworked.

When your M8 goes out for repair, try asking for a loaner.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

When your M8 goes out for repair, try asking for a loaner.

I tried, I wouldn't get any. Hmm.

 

[Ben Z]

I showed it to Christian Erhardt (Leica USA rep that was present) and he just shook his head and said "That needs to go back to Leica".

I would've handed it to him and said "OK here you go" followed by "I'll just take one of those demos you brought, until mine's fixed" loud enough for everyone present to hear his response Christian isn't just a Leica USA rep, he is Leica USA's product director. i.e. the boss over all the other reps. BTW how was the meeting otherwise? ( we decided to take a pass this year.)

 

[ywenz]

Well, it seems to me it's all relative. Canon and Nikon collectively produce hundreds of thousands of DSLRs.

Perhaps 30,000 M8s (certainly no more than that) have been produced.

weigh that into the # of failure posts you read in DSLR forums.

 

[TJV]

I've posted before about this, and I don't want to harp on about it or be negative. I just want to be realistic. My personal experience of the M8 was three faulty bodies, all displaying / having different faults. After the third bummed out I decided to pull out and I'm happy I did. Having experience in the camera retail end of things as well, I can say that from the stories I hear, ignoring the internet stuff, people seem to be relatively happy with the M8. Most of the converts from film M's won't touch the camera, or if they have they've regretted buying it. If it isn't faulty it's the magenta issue and if it's not the magenta issue it's the shutter noise, battery dependance, lack of weather sealing, random shutdowns or "feel." To others it seems a revelation, the whole RF thing has got some people genuinely excited. When I look at some files from other digi's like the 5D I wonder why they look so artificial in comparison to what I saw in my M8 DNG's. The bottom line for me is that I could have learnt to live with the magenta issue. I don't really have the whole set of skills to masterfully process RAW files and I loath editing and selecting digital images. Infact the whole digital process is not for me. But I would have gotten used to it. Time was all I needed to come up with a workflow and process that suited me. Battery life was a bummer but easy to work around. I experienced every type of banding under the sun, the first being the type found in first gen camera's and another type caused by strong point sources of light on the edges of the frame (I saw this A LOT!) This has now become a well documented issue but back then I was told that they'd never heard of such a problem and because it mainly happened in mid to high ISO situations (Like 90% of my work is,) I was told it was "beyond the limits of any camera" and not to expect too much from the camera. This got me thinking and reasearching, as is often the result of being told to live with some defect like this in a product that you've literally invested all your lifes savings into. Sure enough, other examples like mine had been posted on the net but there was still no word from Leica or it's reps on if this issue could be fixed in firmware if at all. (To my knowledge it still isn't fixed?)

I tried to ignore this fault but I came to a blinding realisation. The realisation was this: I had stopped shooting the photo's I wanted to because I was afraid I was going to get ruined shots, perfect photos except for massive unfixable green streaks cutting through the most important parts of the picutures. I realised I had no confidence in the product and this lack of confidence was sapping my concentration and undermining my vision. I had been nominated for a place in the World Press Masterclass and if they gave me the nod (they didn't) I would have to use something I could rely on to produce a large story to take with me to Amsterdam for assessment. I lost a lot of money in the process but I've now re-found film.

The M8 is a quirky product and has had massive problems but I've also been told that a Canon L series lens that was less than six years old was impossilble to repair by the Canon Service Dept. It was just a faulty USM motor, or some such seemingly minor thing. That's not exactly good service or inspiring of confidence in a significant investment either, is it?

No, I'll never buy another M8. Although I respect other peoples opinions (except blinded, crazy nutters on the LUF) I'll definatly look forward to the next digi M Leica bring out. It might just be a redemption product. Bring on the M9! (Just don't count on me being first in line to get it!)

Sorry for the ramble in such an inappropriate thread.

 

[gyuribacsi]

To give my 2 cts:
I think the main problem is the myth of Leica (spreaden by many protagonists like Erwin over several decades) in the head of the most of us. We always anticipate flawless cameras when the name Leica is mentioned.
In the case o th M8 please consider, that the release of the Epson RD1 was the big loud bang in Solms. Then they hurried uo to produce a similar camera in a very short time (Photokica 2006 was theri deadline). I think Leica did a very good job. I don`t know how long VC/Epson developed the RD1 but I think there was not the pressure of a certain day.
All the reported problems of the M8 are similar to other DSLR cameras like Canon or Nikon. The difference is - it`s my private opinion - the a $K10 equipment from C or N is mainly used by professionals, they have two o three bodies and warranty-agreements for free immediate replacement. The M8 is mostly used by people like us, non professionals, but for us a $K5 camera is a big investment and we don`t have any special warranty-agreements with the producer (maybe we are not really important in the business-world).
Please consider too, that Solms/Wetzlar has alsways produced very very reliable cameras - tchnicaly a little bit late an never up-to-date - and superb lenses of outstanding quality. Please forgive them their ignorance and arrogance reg. technical issues or warranty-handling. They will (must) change. Today the have to learn how to live and survive in the mass-market.
I don`t like to imagine what happens when Leica would pass away. It woul be a really catastrophic failor for all of us.

Sorry for this long post.
George

 

[Ben Z]

I was told it was "beyond the limits of any camera" and not to expect too much from the camera. This got me thinking and reasearching, as is often the result of being told to live with some defect like this in a product that you've literally invested all your lifes savings into.

I am far from rich, but if an M8 cost literally my life savings I don't think I could bring myself to spend it on a camera, even if it was the most perfect one in creation, even if it was my profession, and if I did, every cough, sneeze and whisper would send me into a cold sweat. My M8 needs IR filters, which I still think is stupid at this point in digital evolution, and it could very well die on me at some point. I will definitely be perturbed when it happens, but I'll have it repaired and not have a stroke over it. I have a Canon 20D, it and its lenses are too cumbersome for me to travel with comfortably. Image-wise, I don't see why some guys gush about the M8 being so superior. Its down to an M8 or a point-and-shoot, and I much prefer the M8.

 

[gavinlg]

To give my 2 cts:
I think the main problem is the myth of Leica (spreaden by many protagonists like Erwin over several decades) in the head of the most of us. We always anticipate flawless cameras when the name Leica is mentioned.
In the case o th M8 please consider, that the release of the Epson RD1 was the big loud bang in Solms. Then they hurried uo to produce a similar camera in a very short time (Photokica 2006 was theri deadline). I think Leica did a very good job. I don`t know how long VC/Epson developed the RD1 but I think there was not the pressure of a certain day.
All the reported problems of the M8 are similar to other DSLR cameras like Canon or Nikon. The difference is - it`s my private opinion - the a $K10 equipment from C or N is mainly used by professionals, they have two o three bodies and warranty-agreements for free immediate replacement. The M8 is mostly used by people like us, non professionals, but for us a $K5 camera is a big investment and we don`t have any special warranty-agreements with the producer (maybe we are not really important in the business-world).
Please consider too, that Solms/Wetzlar has alsways produced very very reliable cameras - tchnicaly a little bit late an never up-to-date - and superb lenses of outstanding quality. Please forgive them their ignorance and arrogance reg. technical issues or warranty-handling. They will (must) change. Today the have to learn how to live and survive in the mass-market.
I don`t like to imagine what happens when Leica would pass away. It woul be a really catastrophic failor for all of us.

Sorry for this long post.
George

I hate to say it but I'm 100% positive that canon/nikon do not have anywhere near the reliability issues the m8 has... the m8 sales in comparisn to the nikon/canon sales per month is like miniscule. The amount of problems is well documented. I like the m8, I probably wouldn't buy one. I appreciate it, and want to support it but its just a low end sensor in a very expensive shell. Yes it's sharp due to no AA filter, but is it worth it for all the disadvantages?

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

The amount of problems is well documented. I like the m8, I probably wouldn't buy one. I appreciate it, and want to support it but its just a low end sensor in a very expensive shell. Yes it's sharp due to no AA filter, but is it worth it for all the disadvantages?

Let me guess: you don't own one, and take others' conjecture as fact. Not that some that own it and have reported "catastrophic failures" really understand what they have in their hands, coming from an auto-everything world, where also the images must be worth the equipment they use, not the skill they apply.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

To give my 2 cts:
I think the main problem is the myth of Leica

True. The solution is the reality of Leica when one actually owns it.

Or Zeiss, for that matter.

Or Nikon, if you're hardcore brand-name.

 

[gyuribacsi]

@ fgigital
I personally know two pro guys. One with the C-System the other with the N-System. Both of them had some problems with their systems but they got immediate replacement (in 24h). Both of them use two resp. three bodies when shooting and they have their most important lenses twice.

@gabriel
You are right. Leica is a myth and when the users realise the reality they are heavily disappointed, specially in the digital section. Look at the german l-camera-forum. I´m very happy with my M2 gear, never failed.

Regards
George