Classic 120 folders with auto stop?

graywolf said:
That sounds like the Rolleiflex Automats and clones.
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Hmm. Far as I recall, the Rolleiflex Automat and subsequent Rolleiflex models with "automatic loading" use a sensor* that determines where the start of the film is on the 120 roll, then operate the counter and frame spacing completely mechanically.

* The sensor is a pair of rollers on the bottom of the film chamber that the film is drawn through. When the point where the film is attached to the backing passes through the rollers, it expands the gap between the rollers which moves a lever which engages the mechanical drive gearing to move to the next stopping point, etc.

G
 
Godfrey said:
Hmm. Far as I recall, the Rolleiflex Automat and subsequent Rolleiflex models with "automatic loading" use a sensor* that determines where the start of the film is on the 120 roll, then operate the counter and frame spacing completely mechanically.

G
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That's indeed the case Godfrey. Once the counter is engaged by the mechanical filmsensor it is driven by a roller which rests against the backside paper of the rollfilm on the take-up spool.
So, also in this case, the actual filmlength is measured to determine the auto-stop.

The Perkeo II is a bit different as there the roller is situated just before the filmgate in the de-reeling spool chamber and it is driven by the filmside of the rollfilm. This roller has on each end a "starwheel" so the midpart of the film is not touched by it. These starwheels on the Perkeo II are rather gentle and not as sharp as the one in the Iskra which litterary perforates the film 🙂
 
hanskerensky said:
That's indeed the case Godfrey. Once the counter is engaged by the mechanical filmsensor it is driven by a roller which rests against the backside paper of the rollfilm on the take-up spool.
So, also in this case, the actual filmlength is measured to determine the auto-stop.

The Perkeo II is a bit different as there the roller is situated just before the filmgate in the de-reeling spool chamber and it is driven by the filmside of the rollfilm. This roller has on each end a "starwheel" so the midpart of the film is not touched by it. These starwheels on the Perkeo II are rather gentle and not as sharp as the one in the Iskra which litterary perforates the film 🙂
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I have never handled a Perkeo so I was only going by what the other poster said. I would call the film counter drive on the Automat style cameras, a burr wheel. That is what it sounded like he was describing. As you describe it, I would call it a double star wheel.
 
I love folding cameras, but those that rely on the little red windows for frame positioning can be very difficult to use at night.
 
graywolf said:
I have never handled a Perkeo so I was only going by what the other poster said. I would call the film counter drive on the Automat style cameras, a burr wheel. That is what it sounded like he was describing. As you describe it, I would call it a double star wheel.
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Hello Tom,

Here a picture of the Perkeo II that shows the Roller. I noticed that the shape of the starwheels is a bit different then those on another Perkeo II that i have. On that one (later produced) the starwheel parts of the Roller are wider.

8516076603_ddb1ee5c40_o.jpg
 
ZeissFan said:
I love folding cameras, but those that rely on the little red windows for frame positioning can be very difficult to use at night.
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Mike, i did read an article in an old photomagazine about somebody who loved to make nocturnal photos. He had the same problem as you with reading the framenumbers through the red window in the dark. But he came up with a simple solution : A Torch !

Guess that one of these small power-LED torches you can buy nowadays would be ideal.🙂
 
hanskerensky said:
Mike, i did read an article in an old photomagazine about somebody who loved to make nocturnal photos. He had the same problem as you with reading the framenumbers through the red window in the dark. But he came up with a simple solution : A Torch !

Guess that one of these small power-LED torches you can buy nowadays would be ideal.🙂
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That's a good idea. I haven't shot at night in a while, and nowadays I do keep a small LED flashlight in my bag. I just hate to ruin my night vision ... something from my military duty days, I guess.
 
ZeissFan said:
That's a good idea. I haven't shot at night in a while, and nowadays I do keep a small LED flashlight in my bag. I just hate to ruin my night vision ... something from my military duty days, I guess.
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I have a little one with a deep red filter on it for just that issue. Puts out just enough light to work some controls when it's otherwise too dark, but doesn't disturb night vision.

G
 
hanskerensky said:
That's indeed the case Godfrey. Once the counter is engaged by the mechanical filmsensor it is driven by a roller which rests against the backside paper of the rollfilm on the take-up spool.
So, also in this case, the actual filmlength is measured to determine the auto-stop. ...
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Ah yes, that makes sense. I had forgotten about the film motion sensor on the backside of the roll.

I hear people talk all the time about how "simple" these old mechanical cameras are. Seems to me that's a bit of a myth. They don't have electronics in them, but their mechanical complexity is often right up there and quite subtle.

I've been on a bad spree with Ebay purchases, looking for a good example of a particular, long discontinued camera. I've returned four of them so far, all with problems that would be more expensive than the camera is worth (to me) to have repaired. And it's not a particularly complicated camera. There's one more on the way, maybe this one will work to my satisfaction. Otherwise, it's back to the hunt.

G
 
A quick update: I picked up a nice Perkeo II from Jurgen Kreckel. It's deliciously small for the format - barely larger than my Minolta 7SII. Happily, the frame counter seems to be working for now. We'll see how it holds up.
 
I believe the Ensign Commando also has the auto stop. The Ensign Autorange (?) has a system where you wind to the first frame with the red window and then use a counter on the top plate which rotates to line up frame numbers.
My one is really busted, so I don't know how effective it is.
The Kodak monitor 620 I have has a spiked star wheel like the Iskra, but not as viscious and hence not as effective.
 
The Commando does indeed have frame counter. Like my SI 512/16 it provides 11 6x6 pictures if enabled. It can be disabled to get 12 6x6 or 16 6x4.5 exposures by using the red window(s) in the back.

The 220 Auto-Range has also frame counter, but no auto-stop. The top counter (that can be flipped to accomodate the two different negative sizes that the camera can provide, another neat detail brought to you by Ensign ;-) rotates together with the advance wheel, but you could advance the whole roll because it does not stop when the frame is positioned.

The RADA backs have not been mentioned. They effectively make any plate camera a 120 folder with auto-stop frame counter. I use them on 6.5x9 and 9x12 cameras.

And of course on my Plaubel Makina IIIR.
 
jnoir said:
The RADA backs have not been mentioned. They effectively make any plate camera a 120 folder with auto-stop frame counter.
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Rada (later a Plaubel subsidiary) made roll film backs for something like seventy years - they have turned out many different versions, with two or three different red window types, and with many variations of at least three fundamentally different counters. Some are better, some worse. The early ones have considerable planarity issues (as their soft steel springs have been bent out of shape) and many have gummed up and need a thorough CLA of the counter mechanism, but more modern ones can be quite good (and have less overlap issues than contemporary folders) - if you know how to work them.

Loading is a bit odd, many people never figure it out and believe their holder is broken or its transport is inaccurate. I have scanned the manual for what must be the last version from the sixties: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8Ysm-dLKseobW81NEd0WkZ6ZjQ/view
 
I have a couple of really older backs for 9x12 cameras. It did indeed take me a little bit to figure them out. They function well, but ground glass is slow, and wire frames need assistance. Cheaper film use though for sure.

Thanks for the manual though. If I ever see a cheap Rada, I might pick one up.
 
Good to know, although I have never had any issue with any of my backs. I have Rollex backs, too, but I find RADAs are more reliable. I usually prefer the ones with red windows (the springy cover is quite useful) because of their simplicity, but have 35mm, 6x6 and 6x9 auto-frame-counter versions, in black and in chrome. 6x4.5 with accessory mask.

One is even Cortfield labeled and engraved, no reference to RADA but "made in Germany". OEM-like.

The strangest one I saw is square. Quite unusual design indeed.

EDIT: And thanks for the scan of the manual ! Richard Urmonas had a copy scanned some years ago that was most useful to me. Nice to have a second copy online just in case.

http://www.urmonas.net/manuals/plauroll/plauroll.html
 
Godfrey said:
I hear people talk all the time about how "simple" these old mechanical cameras are. Seems to me that's a bit of a myth. They don't have electronics in them, but their mechanical complexity is often right up there and quite subtle.

G
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It's all relative, obviously an older folder is very complicated, like a automatic watch is. Very complicated, and beyond 99% of people's understanding. But a computer processor like the ARM variants you get in so many embedded applications like cameras are stupendously more complicated, and beyond 99.999% of people. Modern fabrication plants stamp out these processors like it's easy, but it's very far from easy or simple.
 
oftheherd said:
One not traditionally thought of would be the Welta Perfekta or Superfekta
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My Perfekta has a mechanical counter - even a (modern) measuring roller type. Had to, as the Perfekta preceded the addition of a 6x6 imprint on the (originally 6x9 only) backing paper. But that counter has no auto stop.
 
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