Spavinaw
Well-known
It's the the four channel Quad-8 tapes that I really enjoy!
Collapse of digital camera sales is accelerating
- Thread starter Skiff
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Pioneer
Veteran
That may be true but 17 year old kids weren't shoving those under the dash of their 64 1/2 Stang in the very early 70s. Beauty is as beauty does.
fireblade
Vincenzo.
Camera manufacturers have to cut back on all the stupid and silly models they make or they'll close up. Too many models, too many manufacturers all trying to out do each other.
This week Nike announced it is getting out of the golf equipment business They are out of the market of which they thought they could dominate with the big signings of Rory and Tiger. Didn't work...there was already too many manufacturers out there.
Some camera companies might be going down that same road.
This week Nike announced it is getting out of the golf equipment business They are out of the market of which they thought they could dominate with the big signings of Rory and Tiger. Didn't work...there was already too many manufacturers out there.
Some camera companies might be going down that same road.
williaty
Established
I was working photographic sales when the digital revolution blew through and watched it decimate the industry. This is all a predictable result of what happened then. Working at a dedicated camera specialty shop, over 95% of our customers weren't "photographers". They had a camera because there were things in their life they wanted pictures of. If the camera got them pictures where they could tell what the pictures were of, that was the extent of the technical quality required. They bought the cheapest camera that would do that, they used it until it wouldn't run anymore, and they fed it the cheapest 400 or 800 speed consumer film we would sell them. This is at a camera specialty shop! If 95% of the people at a specialty shop did not care about technical quality, imagine how much worse it was at Wal*Mao, Best Buy, and Circuit City! We saw an en-masse movement to digital (in fact, it all happened in a single Christmas shopping season) the moment the cheaper digital cameras became as good as the disposable film cameras and the moment the cheapest digital SLRs became good enough to take pictures of kids play sports (D70-era). The customers only cared that it was good enough and they didn't have to pay for film and processing anymore. 95% of them did not upgrade from that 2-3MP P&S or D70-equivalent camera with the 18-whatever kit lens until something broke.
Go look at any of the major photo sharing sites and see what the most common camera is. Most of the time, it's the iPhone 6. On the months when it's not the iPhone 6, it's the Galaxy equivalent. For 95% of people, their cell phone camera has now reached the point where there's no reason to own another camera. For the 5% of the market where something better than a cell phone is wanted, what they want is available one step down the ladder compared to 5 years ago. Someone who used to want a DSLR now can get by with a cheaper mirrorless. Someone who used to get by with a interchangeable mirrorless now can get by with a fixed lens P&S. The market ate itself by improving to the point people can take one or two steps down the price ladder and have no reason to replace the camera until it breaks.
I don't see a way for the photo industry to come back from this because customer demand is already being met by non-camera devices. Walkmen didn't survive the iPod and the MP3 player hasn't really survived the coming of the smartphone. A camera as a separate object is going to become a severely niche object like a high-end turntable is now. Sure, vinyl records are enjoying a renaissance right now because hipsters think they're cool but consider how much LP sales are down from their peak and how few manufacturers of turntables there are today compared to 1960-70. If you want to know what's going to happen to cameras, look at the pricing of high end turntables today.
Go look at any of the major photo sharing sites and see what the most common camera is. Most of the time, it's the iPhone 6. On the months when it's not the iPhone 6, it's the Galaxy equivalent. For 95% of people, their cell phone camera has now reached the point where there's no reason to own another camera. For the 5% of the market where something better than a cell phone is wanted, what they want is available one step down the ladder compared to 5 years ago. Someone who used to want a DSLR now can get by with a cheaper mirrorless. Someone who used to get by with a interchangeable mirrorless now can get by with a fixed lens P&S. The market ate itself by improving to the point people can take one or two steps down the price ladder and have no reason to replace the camera until it breaks.
I don't see a way for the photo industry to come back from this because customer demand is already being met by non-camera devices. Walkmen didn't survive the iPod and the MP3 player hasn't really survived the coming of the smartphone. A camera as a separate object is going to become a severely niche object like a high-end turntable is now. Sure, vinyl records are enjoying a renaissance right now because hipsters think they're cool but consider how much LP sales are down from their peak and how few manufacturers of turntables there are today compared to 1960-70. If you want to know what's going to happen to cameras, look at the pricing of high end turntables today.
jsrockit
Moderator
It's all outdated... computer (which these cameras and music players are) become outdated quickly.
jsrockit
Moderator
Sorry, but young kids use phones... mostly.
jsrockit
Moderator
Yeah, I know your opinion on the matter... but you still use regular cameras too. Even if you don't want us to think you do.
jsrockit
Moderator
All this digital gloom is not going to bring back film into the mainstream... so, everyone wants to talk about how digital is dying and film is dying. Won't be that cool when we have nothing.
Photog9000
Well-known
I agree with you, Keith. I sold a pair of Nikon D2H bodies when I retired from working professionally for a pair of Fuji X-System cameras for lighter weight. But I still miss those old 4.1MP cameras. While I shot mostly for newspaper work, I did have images from those cameras that were blown up and used on billboards with surprising results. Why do I miss those cameras. I had the D2H model for a decade and knew them like the back of my hand. I never had any doubts about how they would perform in a given situation because I had used them for so long. Only had one body die from the metering system failure over that decade.
Skiff
Well-known
Yes.
But that is not the point. As I've explained in one of my above postings, the decline in DSC sales is so massive and brutal that the manufacturers have to look for other segments and new market niches to at least get a little bit compensation by other, additional products.
That is why we probably see new film cameras in the next years (and that does not need big investments: you can take exposure systems, AF systems and mirror mechanics simply from the latest digital cameras). Last Photokina Nikon and Canon already said that they are thinking about that. And Leica introduced their new film M-A because of increasing demand for their film M models.
When new film cameras are introduced, that is a clear sign (also for younger photographers) that film is "in" again. The film market will definitely benefit from that. The film niche will be stronger and more sustainable. And that is good for photography.
Digital will remain mainstream. And a strong and growing film niche is good for the whole photography market. It is good for all of us.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Actually, not only hipsters involved and many turntables costs less than many modern cameras. Yes, some TT cartridges costs more than M-D, but if you go to regular retail store they have TT for $20 dollars now.
And the current amount of TT manufacturers is the same comparing to number of companies making digital cameras for consumers.
http://www.stereomojo.com/TurntableManufacturersLinks.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_digital_camera_brands
"Keep it groovin' "! 🙂
jsrockit
Moderator
Really regarding Nikon and Canon? I'll be very surprised. Leica, I think they will always make one...
I'll believe it when I see it. I'd like to see it.
Agreed, but I'm skeptical.
willie_901
Veteran
I recommend you use it. This could deliver a reputation as a very hip guy who is into the retro movement. You might have to beat the babes off with a stick!
Skiff
Well-known
Yes. They talked to Fujifilm and Kodak. And both said they will continue film production.
We see this scepticism for more than a decade now: At Photokina 2002 the "experts" said film will be dead until 2010.
Now we have 2016, and film is not only alive and kicking, but even new manufacturers like InovisCoat, IP, Adox, Film Ferrania and New55 are working hard on new products (AFAIK there are currently more coating companies worldwide than sensor manufacturers).
The same people said instant film will be the first film type completely killed by digital.
And last year 5.5 million Instax cameras were sold. More than any DSC model! And Instax sales are growing since 2004, by the way (Fuji published the chart last year).
mani
Well-known
Much as I'd like to see it, I don't think there's any way we'll see new film cameras being produced by the major manufacturers: I just don't see how they could possibly compete against the choice or quality of the vast existing pool of used cameras already available.
Sadly for Olympus, Nikon, Canon of today, the cameras they produced thirty years ago are still going strong, and can continue to do so for the next twenty or thirty years to come.
I think the whole idea that camera manufacturers will continue making niche cameras of any sort - film or digital - is just wishful thinking. As someone else pointed-out, look at what happened to other standalone, single function products such as the Walkman.
I remember owning a really nice, brushed metal CD-Walkman with touch-sensitive buttons as a teenager in the eighties. I recently wanted to listen to some of my old CDs while I cook in the kitchen, and took a look at what was available nowadays - and found only utterly crap plastic rubbish. I'm afraid to say that's where digital cameras are headed.
Sadly for Olympus, Nikon, Canon of today, the cameras they produced thirty years ago are still going strong, and can continue to do so for the next twenty or thirty years to come.
I think the whole idea that camera manufacturers will continue making niche cameras of any sort - film or digital - is just wishful thinking. As someone else pointed-out, look at what happened to other standalone, single function products such as the Walkman.
I remember owning a really nice, brushed metal CD-Walkman with touch-sensitive buttons as a teenager in the eighties. I recently wanted to listen to some of my old CDs while I cook in the kitchen, and took a look at what was available nowadays - and found only utterly crap plastic rubbish. I'm afraid to say that's where digital cameras are headed.
jsrockit
Moderator
But nobody cares about CDs anymore, so this is not a good comparison. Until digital is replaced by something else for photography, this won't happen.
Skiff
Well-known
1. For quite a lot of film cameras prices are rising: Look at Hasselblads, Nikon FM3A, Plaubel Makina, XPan, lots of Mamiya models etc.. The higher the prices, the lower the difference to new models, the bigger the willingness to buy new.
Contax 645 for example are already often on their former new prices! Same for Nikon scanners.
2. Another example:
Voigtländer Bessa III: It was introduced in 2008, in the absolute digital boom times. Why? Voigtländer was very clever: They have seen that more than 30 year old cameras (Plaubel Makina) were traded for more than 1,000$. They thougt if people are willing to buy such old cameras for such high prices, they will also be willing to buy such a camera new for about 2,000$.
And they were right: More than 10,000 units of the Voigtländer / Fuji were sold, and the market niche of such folding cameras is now filled again.
But there are lots of other such niches.
3. Polaroid cameras: Dozens of millions cheap, working cameras out there. Nevertheless Impossible has just introduced a completely new instant camera.
4. There are lots of photographers who just prefer buying new.
5. Despite the digital dominance Nikon ist producing the FM10 (made by Cosina for them) and their flagship model F6. Photographers are buying them.
mani
Well-known
But for the vast majority it already has: by phones.
Skiff
Well-known
Sorry, I've seldom read such a stupid comparison.
I am using Instax also professionally, on weddings. Works perfect. No one cares on a wedding for smartphone pics. But all care for my Instax shots as the wedding photographer. It's always one of the highlights. The couple gets a complete album of all guests already at the party.
Instax is also used in insurance, the fashion industry, the American jail system. It is a serious photographic medium. Like Polaroid have been for decades. Artists are using it, too.
mpaniagua
Newby photographer
Agree with that. I work as a software developer for an insurance company and they use them seriously here on car accidents issues, claims, etc.
Not sure why lots of people just see them as toys 🙂 Sure they are not my solid Leica M6 but it is a serious media for certain uses (niche product?).
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