Collecting Leicas vs. Using Them--Excerpt from Magazine

[julianphotoart]

This is a strange (to me anyway) little excerpt from the April 2006 LFI Magazine -- which isn't exactly objective on Leica. Article re a big-time Thai collector named Surat Osathanugrah who has 2000 Leica pieces (including M3 #700000 bought for E95000). The excerpt discusses the Japanese market. It reads:

"Can it be true? Someone who collects cameras and also takes pictures? This combination surely separates Surat Osathanugrah from a species that many active photographs find hard to understand, as described by photo columnist Michael Reichmann in a little anecdote (www.luminous-landscape.com) from a trip to Japan. There, he was fascinated by the market orientation of camera stores, in which countless mint-condition Leicas of all generations were being accumulated. Many of these cmaeras and lenses were shrink-wrap sealed, and when Reichmann expressed an interest for a particularly beautiful Leica IIIg, he asked the sales person whether he could remove the foil so that he, Reichmann, could have a go with the camera. The salesman burst out with laughter. Puzzled, Reichmann asked what was so funny. That was when he learned that the packaging would never, under any circumstances, ever be removed -- not even by the buyer. The clients would take the cameras and lenses home and add them to their collection just as they had been displayed in the store, sealed in plastic like a rare comic book. To go out and actually take pictures with a (sic) exotic piece like that? One had to be joking."

Thought it might be interesting/humourous.

Julian

 

[JeffGreene]

I think it's sad really. Leicas were built to be used to capture images, not serve as bookends, or be warehoused away. But, it takes all kinds, and if that's what floats someone's boat then that's his or her right as the owner. I'm a competitive trapshooter, and it's the same in Trap. There are some people willing to purchase a rare and beautiful old Ithaca 5E or 7E, but using it was never part of the equation. It's an investment. Part of the process definitely involves some intensive gear fondling, and I suppose that's true for the Leica collector, although he or she never actually gets to touch the genuine item. There are users and then there are collectors/investors with many gradations in between.

Jeff

 

[Dougg]

Well, that way they DO stay mint, "uncirculated" so to speak. But it does also thwart the purpose of the inspiration, labor, and materials that went into making it...

 

[ch1]

I have never understood the "collector" mentality.

Instead of Leicas - which we would all agree have a use - can anyone explain the "beanie babies" craze?

People were paying through the friggin' nose to collect oddly-shaped colored cloth bags full of beans! Mint in wrapping was "critical"!

I can understand (but not afford) collecting fine art because it can be admired. But "shrink wrapped cameras" and bags of beans!

Beats the heck out of me! :bang:

 

[JeffGreene]

Unless you have a vivid imagination! 😉

 

[Bertram2]

Article re a big-time Thai collector named Surat Osathanugrah who has 2000 Leica pieces (including M3 #700000 bought for E95000). The excerpt discusses the Japanese market. It reads:
Thought it might be interesting/humourous.
Julian

Actually this has nothing to do with photography at all, tho it is about cameras Rather with the bandwith of the several shapes of the human character, some of them love it to collect things. The motivation behind the collecting phenomenon can be different from collector to collector, too difficult and complex to discuss it here in the forum.

But collecting in no case has anything to do with using he collected things, it's solely about owning things, and it can focus on almost any sort of item.

So somebody who owns 30 cameras and 200 lenses and uses some of them from time to time to do some "test shots", must not necessarily be a collector, even if his motivation is driven also by that often quoted certain "pride of ownership".

The true collector is different, he is a purist of the idea of ownership and will find it of course ridiculous to use the collected items, no matter on what objects his desire concentrates: Empty beer cans, stamps, Ferraris, vintage wines, used knickers or Leicas.

That means the shrink-wrap sealed cameras are simply the natural very last consequence, some keep their Ferraris stored the same way. Not surprising that the guy in the store had to laugh, to him the idea to take one of the cameras out of the wrap to use it seemed as idiotic as the idea to put a Blue Mauritius stamp on a letter , as the postage.

Regards,
bertram

 

[amateriat]

I remember, on my first (and, so far, only) trip to France in 1992, when I wasted little time in making a bee-line to the Louvre, and had my first encounter with the Mona Lisa, where I was shocked to discover (1), the work was a lot smaller than I had imagined (show of hands: how may others were caught off-guard by this?), and (2) that is was protected by a serious, multi-paneled frame of Plexiglas. One-and-a-half-times removed, in a way.

Shrink-wrapped, freeze-dried Leicas? I think the same of them as I think of the guy with the gull-wing-doored Mercedes in his livingroom: it's your money, so have at it. But I also think it a sad end to such purposeful machinery: these aren't, after all, fabulous machines because they're under glass, as it were; they're under glass because they are machines of superlative quality, and were made to be used. This doesn't mean they aren't museum- (or collector-) worthy, it's just the fetishism of so many wannabe collectors that gets on my nerves a bit (and, more importantly, keeps Leicas out of the hands of people who would otherwise put them to potentially great use).

But I suppose this is the sort of thing that'll help keep Leica in business, so perhaps I shan't grouse but so much.


- Barrett

 

[Stu W]

At 4% in the bank, a Leica might be a better investment.

 

[clarence]

I would appreciate more production in the manner of the Leizt-Minolta CL. Make the Leitzes for the collectors, and the Minoltas for the users.

Clarence

 

[amateriat]

For the moment, Clarence, Cosina seems to be taking up the slack in that department (and improving). Perrhaps not everyone's RF cup of tea, but at least it's an option.

- Barrett

 

[SDK]

It is peculiar to shrink wrap Leicas, since they don't come that way from the factory. It may keep the outside mint looking but the works must gum up from lack of use. They aren't mint on the inside.I reskinned my standard M7 in Lizard skin from CameraLeather.com, and now it compliments my a la carte one. Both uncollectible forever! Ha ha!

 

[John Camp]

The Beanie Babies phenomenon was not entirely unintelligible, any more than the tulip mania or the South Seas bubble were -- economists have a phrase for it, the "Final Fool" syndrome. What's happening is foolish, and most people recognize the fact, but there's tons of money being made and only the "Final Fool" is going to get stuck: he'll pay a fortune and what he gets will be worthless before he can unload it. Check out the condo situation in Miami...

True collectors are interesting people, as often interested in aesthetics as they are in possession -- you see it a lot in antiquities collectors, and, I think, even beer can collectors. They're interested in beer cans qua beer cans, and don't really care what outsiders think.

It is a little different with machinery, which is designed to be used; you'd think the aesthetic would lie in the use, rather than the simple possession of a form. Some of the best parts you'd never see, although you could *feel* them if you were using them.

JC

 

[tedwhite]

My friend, George Spears - his Mom, Gussie Spears, owned Superior Oil Company in California, so he had access to a bit of extra capital - bought a new 300SL gullwing when they first came out in 1955. He was probably 23 at the time. It cost $7800. I drove him down from Bakersfield to Los Angeles to pick it up. We drove it around quite a bit. One night we took it out on the Buttonwillow Road and drove it 151 mph, the fastest ground speed of my life. George was certainly no collector. I think he bought it for its looks, its engineering (he was fascinated by the car's fuel injection system - Bosch? - ) but he just drove the car every day. It got dirty and covered with dust because at that time there were a lot of dirt roads in Kern County. Once in a while he would wash it. However, he was careful about maintenance. I left Bakersfield in 1956 (perhaps the smartest move of my life) and learned years later that he was still driving it. Might as well have been a Chevrolet. It was a car, a tool to be used until it wore out.

Another friend bought a new Corvette. When he gave me a ride he made me take my shoes off before I got into the car. He was so obsessed with keeping the car pristine that he stopped driving it, garaged it, and bought a second car for daily use, a purchase he could hardly afford. The Corvette had put him well behind the financial eight-ball.

It was sad that an automobile had come to dominate his life.
If he is still alive, and still has the Corvette, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he's shrink-wrapped it.

During most of my early life in photography I could only afford used cameras, and I used the hell out of them. When I finally got enough money to buy a Leica in the mid-eighties It never occurred to me to worry about it or baby it. I used to carry it slung from my neck along with a Spotmatic and the two cameras spent a lot of time banging into each other. As John Camp puts it, "the aesthetic is in the use."

For me, if I have a camera just sitting on a shelf, eventually I decide there's no real reason to keep it and I'll get rid of it. (With one exception: I kept a Speed Graphic for 20 years on a shelf in the dining room because it looked so cool).

Ted

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

How about the people who buy Leicas sealed in the factory box.

I've seen ads for rare Leicas in the box, never opened. I can only assume it's a Zen thing to have a great camera on display in your collection that you can't touch or even see.

 

[Bertram2]

... and, I think, even beer can collectors. They're interested in beer cans qua beer cans, and don't really care what outsiders think.
JC

"Outsisders" is a remarkable choice of word here, it is indeed something like their own world some collectors create with collecting.
The word "interesting" is a two sided medal tho in this context, there is too often an element of social isolation in this issue, turning away from people and concentrating on things .

One should not mix up the several types of motivation , some collect to make money, and so the collected item is just an object of speculation for them, some collect to own things solely. And among those the one with the shrink sealed Leicas differs essentially from one who collects impressionistic paintings to hang them on the walls of his house.

A minimum of differentiation is (as always) unavoidable, if you don't want to lose the track in this discussion. "The collector" does not exist.

bertram

 

[sf]

collecting cameras is sick. Just plain mental illness. Not only is it a horrid waste of a beautiful tool, but it drives prices up for those who actually wish to USE the things.

I think about buying a Leica, but then I think that I won't use it that often because it can't compare to the RF645, and it would naturally become a collector's thing. It would sit around. Even though I would LOVE to own such a marvel of mechanical creation, I refuse to spend money on anything that won't be used actively. So, I will probably never buy a Leica unless it falls into my hands or the RF645 . . .well, I won't even say that. Knock on cheap laminate desk wood.

 

[Bertram2]

collecting cameras is sick. Just plain mental illness. Not only is it a horrid waste of a beautiful tool, but it drives prices up for those who actually wish to USE the things.

Especially to let Leicas sit on the shelf is plain idiocy. This is an all mechanical little machine precisely manufactured with extraordinary narrow tolerances to make it work with perfect precision. Narrow tolerances mean lubrication gets an issue, there is a minimum only needed and the type of grease and oil is different from the type used in gadgets with wider tolerances.
Therefore Leicas must get prepared for very low temperatures if they shall work there with the same precision as at normal temperatures.

So letting a Leica sit on the shelf for years just to own it is not only comparable to the bird in his cage, it is a perversion also in the technical sense, it is the best way to make it completely useless. It's precision is obligation, it must get used or it dies.

bertram

 

[clarence]

For the moment, Clarence, Cosina seems to be taking up the slack in that department (and improving). Perrhaps not everyone's RF cup of tea, but at least it's an option.

- Barrett

I agree, but a Leitz CL and a Minolta CL are essentially the same (unless I'm wrong. Please let me know.), whereas a Bessa R / R2 / R3 is completely different from anything that Leitz offers. The Leica and Panasonic digital cameras are the same as well, with radically different pricing strategies.

For example, if CV could offer a Bessa as silent as a Leica, I wouldn't hesitate in getting one. Having said that, CV offers an excellent line of cameras for not a great deal of cash.

Clarence

 

[Solinar]

I agree. Letting a mechanical device such as a Leica set for decades without use will cause lubricants to both separate and migrate. Over time the lubricants will tend to gum up.

The hermetically sealed wrap is an interesting twist, as it prevents fondling. I guess the goal is to own a pristine IIIg that is untouched by human hands. This is a mondo bizarre fate for a camera that was hand assembled every at every step in the manufacturing process.

This isn't photography. If anything, it is about building a shrine to the camera itself.

 

[Silva Lining]

I have my Zorki colection on the shelf and use my Leica... 😀