Collecting Leicas vs. Using Them--Excerpt from Magazine

I agree with everything that's been said about collectors. Alot of the behavior seems connected to the "look at me" syndrome. For example, about a month ago my wife asked me to pick up a digital "HDTV" camera. She had read about some digital camera she claimed could do 16:9 HDTV format. Well ,after a short trip to the local store I was introduced to the Leica Dlux2 (approx. $795 at that time). The owner is a friend and member of our local club. She indicated that the camera was simply a rebadged Panasonic LX1 (approx $440). Same camera, different skin. Some people don't mind paying the extra dollars for cosmetics. I bought the panasonic, which despite some noise issues at the higher ISO's, easily handled by neat image or noise ninja, is a very rangefinder-like camera.
 
I feel the same as shutterflower.

I'm still just an amateur photographer. I've used cameras since I was little, and I definitely see function over aesthetics.

I've collected everything from stamps to comic books and zippo's. With these things I can completely understand keeping something free from grubby fingers. Back when I collected comics I would buy the first edition/printing of each issue and store it with an acid-free backing board in a baggy, and then either buy a second copy to read, or wait for a collected trade paperback to read. I keep all my zippo's on display because they look cool, but they arent used, apart from one cheaper plain design that I DO use.

It gets a bit ridiculous.

With camera's I'm definitely more concerned with how well they operate. I like them looking clean, but I bought a Zenit-E (as a back-up to my Minolta Dynax 404), a Rolleicord TLR, and now a Zorki-4k cos they're all cheap and good to start with.

I could have bought a high-end 35mm SLR, the best Rolleiflex or gone for an expensive medium format SLR, and then splashed on a Leica. But I'd be afraid to use them.

I have that 'collector' spirit inside me, and I feel more comfortable with a cheaper camera that I can do what I like with, than buy something that I'd want insurance on just to take out of the house.


Sorry, just trying to show the conflict between collector and operator in my mind. As for the Japanese, they collect anything and everything so I would have thought Leica's in shrink-wrap would have been obvious.
 
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I'm in Singapore, and 'shrink wrapped' cameras are seen here very often too. I've several collector friends who never allow their cameras to see light of day...

Once I was on an assignment, and I happen to be shooting it with my Nikon FM-2T because that was as discreet a camera as I have available... While I was going about firing away, this guy came up to me and said, "Hey you know they don't make those anymore? You should not be using it... You should have it in storage instead!"

Is it unfortunate for my beat-up FM-2T that I bought it to use it? I'd admit that I'm sentimental about that little camera, but in my mind, if I were to put it away for storage, it would be a more unfortunate fate for what is obviously a camera that Nikon had originally designed for hard usage in almost any environment.

I'm looking forward to the Leica DM, and when I do finally get it, I'd expect it to earn its keep as did any cameras I've ever paid for. I'd not hesitate to buy the best possible gear I can afford for my work, but I simply cannot afford any gear that I cannot re-coup within a certain time, let alone to buy anything only to have it 'shrink-wrapped'!

Kev
 
In December last year I called Tamarkin's store in NY and asked if they had a Nikon SP. The sales peraon said they had a beater but stated it wasn't in collectors condition. i stated i was going to use it and the response was, "why do you want to use one of those". I simply said that i don't collect but do use them for photography, there was a long pause from the sales person. It's obvious where their market is.
 
It is all about supply and demand, and of course it is like the chicken or the egg scenario.

It's kinda sad to see the German photographic industry, especially Leica, have to make money out of cameras which are not destined to be used. When Rollei started making the gold and the silver 35 limited editions I saw what's coming. Minox in polished silver with a pair of white gloves included so that you won't scratch the mirror finish on the soft metal, etc. Does anyone know that the gold-plated Linhof Technorama 612 limited edition has no working parts inside the shell?

All these makes the Voigtlanders the more commendable. True enough there are those limited editions whose destinies are less likely to be workaday tools like the standard ones, but hey, I am sure that the majority of them fulfill their functions as cameras for taking pictures rather than just objects to possess.
 
Shrink Wrap...

HK camera stores do keep their more valueable inventories in shrink wraps, but they do let customer to open the wraps and handle the camera.

I guess they do this to protect from corrosion under the asia climate.

OT: Last time I broke a shrink wrap in a camera store, it was on a Leica IIIG, so I guess there are some truth to the collector style of shrink wrapping. 😀



Will
 
For what it's worth, this was not my experience from living in Japan. There were a ton of used camera shops and the like, but the only stuff that was shrink wrapped were things like the gold M4P's and R4's and whatever else is obviously never meant to be used. Whenever I asked to check something out, the salesperson would take it out and let me see it. The only time I was not allowed to do this was when I wanted to see a Zeiss Ikon and they did not have a demo. So they did not want me to open the seal on the packaging of the new camera, which I understand. This is from multiple stores, in Sapporo and Tokyo. Most of them have let me to mount lenses on my camera and take a few shots in the street as well. Perhaps it is because I speak Japanese? Japanese tend to be more uncomfortable around foreigners who don't speak Japanese...

As for collectors, I don't really mind. I figure that we are lucky to have them because if we didn't then most of the cameras we love to use would have been thrown out in the sixties or seventies when SLR's became king. The fact that you can still buy an M3 in great condition is pretty much solely due to the fact that collectors love them.
 
Surely the camera is just the means that produces the end result -the image. Who would go to the Louvre if it was filled with displays of really nice paintbrushes and chisels? A camera that doesn't take pictures is pointless.
 
I don't think it is that simple. Have you ever been to a design museum? The Mona Lisa hangs in one type of museum, but another museum has furniture, vacuum cleaners, the eMac and M cameras. The world is not simple and rarely boils down to absolutes.
 
JeffGreene said:
Kev:

Just imagine Bill M. wandering the streets of Singapore! I'll never forget his kit photo. It's awe-inspiring!

Bill M's Kit

Wow! Jeff,

Bill M has as many cameras as I have vintage wood planers in my hand tools collection! I don't shrink wrap them either... I clamp a piece of wood to my work bench and I plane very fine and thin shavings to de-stress! 😱

Almost as effective as visiting the local spa for a massage...

Kev
 
They let me hold a gold Hasselblad 500C/M once. It was nice. A little more hefty than the regular one, but it still handled the same.

It focused very smoothly, and the shutter was dead on. Felt like it was well-taken care of. They just sort of left it sitting in the window shelf. No case or anything, just sort of sitting there. No shrink wrap.

It was nice. Ridiculous, obviously a collector's piece, but it also worked. I liked that.

My M2 is definitely not a collecting camera. Sometimes I wonder if this thing ever saw a factory box.
 
I understand the hoarder mentality. It's a brain issue. Most people that do it don't even notice themselves having too many cameras I'm sure. Just like an OCD person washing their hands 40 times a day. I've got it bad.. I hoard lots of things. Fortunately I know it, and try to keep it at bay and use common sense.

Every camera I have, I have put at least one roll of film through. I also only own cheap cameras that most people wouldn't want to mess with anyway. I fiddle with them regularly, just to try to appreciate the design that went into them, and try to think back to what it was like when people were using them in the 50's and 60's.

I've got three Vespa scooters in my garage, a motorcycle, a classic car, a pickup, a station wagon, and the daily driver. I drive them all except for the two non-running scooters. In my case, I realize that the thrill of the hunt up to ownership is what drives me. Once I get the items, I quickly get bored and move on to my next aquisition goal.

Cameras have been cheaper than cars 😉

My mom use to drag me around to garage sales and auctions when I was a kid, and she filled our house with junk. So I'm pretty sure it's genetic! Fortunately my dad is a minimalist, and I have a bit of his genes in me.

My biggest issue is that I hate getting rid of things, so I just keep filling empty space with more junk.

My annoyance with camera collecting comes in where the 'collector' doesn't know anything about the camera, or has cameras that don't work. I went to a swap meet recently and saw a guy with a lot of various rangefinders. I was asking him to demonstrate how they worked, and asked him which ones worked, if they were usable, etc.... He just kind of mumbled at me, and fidgeted a lot. He kept rearranging them on the table as if he had OCD. He had a Leica M4. Being new to cameras and the hobby, I asked him to explain why a Leica is worth more than his Canonet on the table. He didn't have an answer for me. He said he'd never even used it because he never got a lens for it. I asked if I could handle it and open it up to examine it, but he was really adimant that I have to be serious about buying it if I'm going to 'possibly break it.'

It was kind of sad. I have a lot of fun with the hobby currently, and I've shot over 300' of b&w film in the past 3 months in about 20 different cameras. This guy was clearly trapped by his cameras. He looked miserable, and every time someone came by and handled one of his BROKEN old cameras with a value of maybe $5.00, he'd spend a good 30 seconds putting it back in its place on the table and muttering to himself. Poor guy.. I felt bad for him. I have no idea why he was even entered as a seller at the show. Probably his wife telling him he had to pick 100 cameras to get out of their house 😉

Either way, I don't want to become that guy. Right now I'm contemplating selling off some of my Yashicas and other antique cameras with the goal of having one nice rangefinder kit.

Oh, I forgot my point:

I wanted to complain about people collecting things due to the fact that the things WILL age. It's a viscious circle. Person A owns and enjoys an item, and is clueless as to its value. Person B is a shark that swindles Person A out of his item, and feeds the sickness of Person C, who is a 'collector' and will pay top dollar for something they won't use, but can't control their compulsion to own.

I like antique AM radios. The old catalin ones are selling for top dollar. The people buying them may or may not realize that as they age, the catalin shrinks and eventually breaks. Someone might pay 5000 dollars for a Fada bullet radio that will eventually self destruct. First the glass bezel will shatter one day at random. Then the casing will distort and fracture. See, I'm sane enough to realize that it's a bad investment! But these poor saps can't restrain.

It's the Person B's of the world that annoy me the most.. The sneaky middlemen that up the price, create the hysteria, and take advantage of the Person C's.

As this relates to cameras, I see a lot of interesting cameras that I'd like to use, but when I ask the seller (usually a Person B,) they tell me "oh, that doesn't work, but it'd make a good addition to your collection." or "I don't know anything about it. It might work, it might not."

My one rule of camera collecting is that I will not buy anything that doesn't work. The problem comes in where I keep finding WORKING cameras 😉
 
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luketrash said:
I understand the hoarder mentality. It's a brain issue. Most people that do it don't even notice themselves having too many cameras I'm sure...
I was thinking along the same lines. Why, oh why, are some people so busy collecting? There's no practical reason to load a cabinet full with Leicas that won't see the light of day.

I guess it's an inherited survival trait. Like squirrels stashing away acorns for winter..
 
I like the squirrel comparison 🙂 Unfortunately, camera collectors don't forget where they hide their stuff under the ground.

All of the cameras that I have, have been used extensively. My favorite camera is the Olympus OM-4T that I've brought down from pretty good to below average status by using it. I have a story for every bit that's broken off. OK, I might have a bit of a collector in me, but I prefer buying stuff in order to use it and then keeping it for the emotional value. I can currently afford to buy new stuff without selling things I hardly use (as if they would bring me any money). But eventually, I'll probably hand over a part of what I have to somebody who wants to learn on decent equipment. It's equipment, it served me well, I hope it will end up in the hands of somebody that can be served by it again.


Peter.
 
StuartR said:
I don't think it is that simple. Have you ever been to a design museum? The Mona Lisa hangs in one type of museum, but another museum has furniture, vacuum cleaners, the eMac and M cameras. The world is not simple and rarely boils down to absolutes.

You can say that again and again....
 
As for Person B... if you ever sold one of your camera's, you'd hope to have the same luck as B not A. I wouldnt want to buy something, and when I go to sell it on, make more of a loss than I need to. This may be greed, but we all have it in us.

I worked in a second-hand shop for about a year (all sorts of things, hi-fi's to antiques), and once I had learnt, I can never forget to buy it as cheap as possible, and sell it for more than its worth (to allow room to haggle).

I think the joke is something like, when you want to sell something to me "its not what its worth, its what I'll pay you for it" and when I sell you something "its not what I paid for it, its what its worth to you" and to be honest, thats how auctions and businesses work, and thats the system you'll encounter if you sell camera equipment (or anything) to a shop, or person B.
 
Julian; Shrinkwrap all the cameras, then you have the pros and cons of camera collecting for all to enjoy.
Pro.. good copies of these cameras will eventually get out to the public
Con, you have to wait for the collector / estate to dispose of the collection

Luke, I'm a collector who used to be a "complete-ist" ie had to have every one of a series as well as variants. I quickly found out what most collectors do. You need a warehouse to keep the collection.

Today I limit myself to a few choice (to me) pieces from several producers and hit stop. I max out at about 15-20 of anything ... except books. I stopped long ago.
 
When I go to the butcher it's obvious that at one time he had a few ceramic pigs on display... and then friends and family gave him more and more and more and now there's hundreds all over the shop.

What started as a nice (?) collection is now getting out of control.

Or maybe he gets these pigs himself. I don't know. But it's clearly gone too far.
 
Bertram2 said:
Especially to let Leicas sit on the shelf is plain idiocy. This is an all mechanical little machine precisely manufactured with extraordinary narrow tolerances to make it work with perfect precision. Narrow tolerances mean lubrication gets an issue, there is a minimum only needed and the type of grease and oil is different from the type used in gadgets with wider tolerances.
Therefore Leicas must get prepared for very low temperatures if they shall work there with the same precision as at normal temperatures.

So letting a Leica sit on the shelf for years just to own it is not only comparable to the bird in his cage, it is a perversion also in the technical sense, it is the best way to make it completely useless. It's precision is obligation, it must get used or it dies.

bertram
Actually the real collector has Leica remove all lubricant. If one wants to use such a camera it has to be relubricated.
 
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