Collectors and Unofficial Cameras

[Rudybustamante]

In the past few days I've been trying to put myself in the shoes of a collector (leather intact, minor scuffing on sole, barely used)

Some time ago I came into possession of what I consider a fairly special camera with some interesting history - an Ensign Commando folding rangefinder, with a wartime military lens board and a later body, with no serial number on the latter. I've been told by an authority on the cameras that it was probably assembled unofficially in the factory. I've concocted all sorts of narratives for it, like the man who worked in a luxury car factory and took one piece home every day until he could build one for himself.

Of course the two halves could have been a later repair job, but I strongly doubt that considering the lack of serial number in the accessory shoe, and the rarity of the lens board (never released to the public, for military use only).

Now, I'm moving cities, short on cash, and am having to begrudgingly sell it on. Got in contact with a certain Austrian auction house, and after a valuation they inform me that 'the condition is not very attractive' due to rust on the lens board (happens to all the wartime ones unfortunately, unprotected metal), and I'd be better off selling it locally.



So my thought is this: it's not a Sultan of Brunei Leica, it's not a special commemorative 50th anniversary body (only 50 made), it wasn't made to be special. But to me, it's a one of a kind, a little piece of history.

I suppose just by keeping it without using it I am myself a collector, but I'm posing a question more to the people with glass cabinets, prized rare models etc. What are your thoughts on a camera like this? Is it a curio like one of the Soviet 'Luftwaffe Leicas', an interesting conversation piece but not very well regarded? Is the questionable provenance and imperfect condition just too much of a dealbreaker?

I dunno, I've grown rather attached to the thing, but I'm thinking it's time to hand it over to someone who'll take better care of it than I can, if they want it. Or maybe I'm just a fool for having such high regard for a ratty old after hours/garden shed camera.

Opinions?

 

[rover]

Nothing wrong with having a couple cameras which you just call part of a collection.

 

[Pastor Chris]

I have a few cameras that are just too cool/interesting to part with but do not work and would be too expensive to fix. I used to pride myself that my small collection of cameras was fully functional, but then I came across some that look great or have a neat story but I don't have the resources to fix. I would not call myself a "collector" although I do have a small collection of cameras and accessories that I like. If I came across something called an "ensign commando rangefinder" I would certainly keep it and enjoy!

 

[BLKRCAT]

But to me, it's a one of a kind, a little piece of history.

I think this might be the reason why you are so confused about the value. You think its great, and nothing wrong with that but other collectors might not see it the same.

While I dont know much about the camera I know that anyone can think something is great while others see it quite differently. One man's treasure is another man's trash. (not saying the camera is trash! 😀)

 

[Rudybustamante]

See that's the thing, I'd love to keep it, but due to personal circumstances I pretty much can't.

just graduated university, no family in the country, currently homeless and sofa surfing. When I do find a place, space will most likely be tight enough that I can't afford luxuries like cameras I don't use.

Money also being an issue, I'm selling off all but the absolute essential of gear. With that in mind, this is one of the few cameras I do't think I could part with short of a fair bit of cash being offered. Which is why I was wondering if there was any 'capital C' collector interest in it.

Just earlier today I sold an FT-2 panoramic camera (an early Horizont, 16,000-odd made). Made me rather sad, there was nothing else I owned that could do the things it did. But it just wasn't getting used.


For all the talk of 'all my cameras are users', there's a lovely mechanical complexity in some of these old cameras. They're engineering marvels, and I think it's perfectly reasonable to appreciate them for their history, or technology, or what have you.

I am mostly a shooter, for the past couple of years I've had 4 cameras that I've used exclusively - and use them I have done, pretty much every day. I've tried a few to see if they'd work (the Commando and a Super Ikonta were bought to take on my yearly trip to Brazil, so I could shoot medium format without people stopping me on the street to warn against robbers - turns out I can't get around folders' idiosyncrasies), but it's mostly back to these four.

But gear appreciation doesn't preclude the creation of images, contrary to what I've heard said on here a lot.

I trawl used goods markets, back alley shops, all kinds, looking for cameras to clean/fix/look after. I've had my heart broken by street vendors shoveling cap-less TLRs and stereo cameras, Werras and plate folders into binbags and swinging them over their shoulders. they're such wonderful objects it's nice to think they're safeguarded from that kind of damage for a future generation to possibly enjoy. Unfortunately, such is life, everything is transient etc etc.

Back OT, I was just wondering if anybody sees *this* particular camera as anything special, or I should just pack it away in a box; and/or stop getting ideas above my station

 

[Rudybustamante]

I think this might be the reason why you are so confused about the value. You think its great, and nothing wrong with that but other collectors might not see it the same.

While I dont know much about the camera I know that anyone can think something is great while others see it quite differently. One man's treasure is another man's trash. (not saying the camera is trash! 😀)

Yeah, I figured. that's why I wanted to ask here if the only thing the 'real' collectors are interested in are pristine official limited editions

 

[Boris Stupak]

I'm a complete nutjob/hoarder. This is only one of about 8 shelves in my office, not to mention the huge boxes filled with LTM and M-mount lenses, and about 500 cameras.

(Don't even ask about the military watches)

My wife hates it, I love the old stuff. Most bought for next to nothing.

(your idea of what is valuable, and what is ACTUALLY valuable in the market probably wildly differ. i always just go with what I like. I rarely make a major mistake. don't buy if you have no idea what you're doing, unless you pay miniscule prices. non-collector sellers usually think their old garbage is worth FAR more than it is)

 

[Boris Stupak]

PS: Your eBay listing is wildly optimistic:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNIQUE-Rare...rmat-rangefinder-folding-camera-/300952385367

 

[Rudybustamante]

PS: Your eBay listing is wildly optimistic:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNIQUE-Rare...rmat-rangefinder-folding-camera-/300952385367

Oh absolutely, reach for the stars eh.

I'd put it up last night. I guess the train of thought was that production models of Fotons, Reids, Leitz lenses etc go for much more than this. Decently listed Commandos maybe £150.

My thinking was: I really like it, don't want ot part with it unless the money's an offer I can't refuse. Don't get me wrong, I'm not thinking I'll certainly sell it at all.

Well, now you've embarrassed me...

 

[Scrambler]

Yeah, I figured. that's why I wanted to ask here if the only thing the 'real' collectors are interested in are pristine official limited editions

Just keep waiting: remember this is an international forum and you often need to give it 24 hours to get the response of the whole world.

Like many here I'm in denial about being a collector. I think you are likely to find someone who is interested in Ensign, or Commandos in particular, that would be prepared to offer reasonable money but ... I doubt it will be worth much more than a "user" because there won't be that many people, even worldwide, to create competition.

You find the camera interesting and valuable. I find it interesting but not enough to pay any money at all for it (I have an Auto-Range 220 that does the job for me of a 120 RF). If you can tap the right crowd you will find someone like you who is passionate about it, they may agree with you on a dollar value. But it is a niche market.

I would start by checking for websites, sold cameras on auction sites etc that might point you in the direction of Ensign collectors. FWIW the 2001 McKeown's valued an average Commando at $100-150.

 

[Rudybustamante]

Just keep waiting: remember this is an international forum and you often need to give it 24 hours to get the response of the whole world.

Like many here I'm in denial about being a collector. I think you are likely to find someone who is interested in Ensign, or Commandos in particular, that would be prepared to offer reasonable money but ... I doubt it will be worth much more than a "user" because there won't be that many people, even worldwide, to create competition.

You find the camera interesting and valuable. I find it interesting but not enough to pay any money at all for it (I have an Auto-Range 220 that does the job for me of a 120 RF). If you can tap the right crowd you will find someone like you who is passionate about it, they may agree with you on a dollar value. But it is a niche market.

I would start by checking for websites, sold cameras on auction sites etc that might point you in the direction of Ensign collectors. FWIW the 2001 McKeown's valued an average Commando at $100-150.

Thank you very much for teh insight

 

[Scrambler]

Relative to above comment on listing, I'd have thought "reasonable" would be 20-50% premium on similar condition camera. Bearing in mind that it will not be worth much at all in a general auction. And remembering in particular that on ebay it is the second-highest bidder that defines the price.