Collectors and users

[wlewisiii]

I leave collectibles for the collectors - I find it very easy to leave something in the case if it's not something I'll use. No value judgment for me, I just have too small a toy budget as it is.

 

[naruto]

This whole collectors and users discussion has as much potential for resolution as the film verses digital argument IMO ... which is not much! 😛

Keith, are you hinting that we have a Collector's Forum?

*runs* 😀

 

[Pickett Wilson]

I wonder how much "collectors" actually have effected the price of used Leicas in the marketplace. During the 1980's and early 1990's, I did a lot of the big buy-sale-trade shows that were popular then, and there were numerous Japanese buyers at every one them, with brief cases full of cash, buying every decent Leica that came into the place. I talked to a number of these guys, and basically they were buying up every nice Leica they could get and storing them in vaults in Japan.

Now, you can argue this was not a great investment strategy, but I wonder if most of them have found their way back into the market place by now, or if there has been some artificial scarcity (although, Leica's don't really seem to be scarce in the second hand market) because of their actions that has affected the price of these cameras.

 

[januaryman]

Nah, I think he probably had sth else in mind 😛

Please God, let this be a Photoshopped image! No one wouldreally do this to a fine camera, would they?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Iinvesting in cameras, investing in comic books, investing in real estate. That is a lot different from collecting and using them. I have a number of collectible cameras, and I use a lot of cameras.

"Collector/User" is what we run across here at RFF. An investor would never load a roll into a near-mint Nikon SP and use it. A collector would never buy a Leica M3 with meter marks across the top. A "collector/user" does both.

 

[Nikon Bob]

"So how much of the sniping at collectors is simply sour grapes?" Most of it I suspect as it is only human nature to be jealous. You can try and justify it by the mental gymnastics of supposed reasoned arguments but in the end it goes back to simple jealousy. No big deal and very normal.

Bob

 

[umboody]

I tend to go in and out of collecting cameras purely for the sake of it. I only use three cameras max, but have over twenty. When finances dictate, I have to sell some of them, but generally this makes room for others in the long run. Strange habit when I think about it...

 

[TheHub]

I like Japanese collectors. They only want mint condition equipment - which means cameras with sometimes only minor wear can be had cheaply by me! 🙂

 

[ederek]

Roger - nothing wrong with collecting. I think you may be interpreting some of the Leica bashing or other comments as "anti-collecting".

What annoys me about Leica's approach is the branding and product positioning. Nothing to do with collecting, but rather being repulsed by overt association with conspicuous consumption, etc..

For decades I've avoided having a BMW. Are they great driving machines? Yes they are, but it is the large volume of posers who buy BMW's solely for the brand that keeps me away.

Is a Mont Blanc a nice writing instrument? Yes, but their branding and public perception means I carry a Pelican or Namiki (probably a more innovative pen than any Monte Bianco).

Do I like Ostrich skin? Very much, and have carried the same Ostrich wallet every day since 1994 - only possible with the highest quality materials. BUT, vulcanite will do just fine, thank you very much.

Do I like Titanium? Very much, and have some camping items that benefit from it (including a Ti spoon, no silver for me!). Worked in aerospace a time ago and some jet engines benefited from Ti, but in Leica's case the motivation is probably just the marketing / branding positioning over true weight savings for the system. Did they once state how much weight was saved through the use of Ti? Sadly, no.

So I scrape off the white Leica model identifier and tape over the logo. I say "it's a rangefinder" when people ask, not "a Leica". I think if someone asks me "Is that a Leica", I'll respond with "What's a Leica?" from now on to see what their perception are of the brand. Will report back on the responses...

<snip>I have more issue with the companies that deliberately market items aimed at collectors than the collectors themselves. Buying a camera like the M9ti to stash away is about as hollow as buying a reproduction antique and no real collector with genuine interest in rare or exotic items would do so in my book. More likely it's fodder for some tosser with too much disposable income who wants bragging rights to compensate for no genuine taste or class!

Exactly.

Roger - I don't see a single sour grape there. Sour grapes would be if Keith wished to be in their position but wasn't able. I see quite the opposite, so maybe Keith is more a Case of Fine Wine?

The fact that per se, new Leica cameras are out of my reach financially, doesn't make me angry or jealous of those who can still afford them, but highlights a serious marketing problem for Leica: They sell so little cameras that the per-item manufacturing setup & tooling costs have to be distributed over an excessively small number of cameras.

If their cameras were innovative, they'd be able to sell more of them, which would bring them economies of scale. These would not only be beneficial for Leica, but for the eintire community of Leica users.

Yup. While the market for current M systems at current prices isn't so large, the photography market itself is substantial and likely still growing today (don't have numbers to back that up, but seems that way). [More] innovation by Leica would open the system up to more of that growing market.

What innovations do you want to see? The S2 looked pretty good to me. So did the first ever full-frame digital rangefinder. Most of the things people ask for are personal preferences rather than actual improvements, e.g. opening back (I like the removable base). Others are difficult or impossible to get into the small, svelte M-body. For example, the parallax-compensated, frame-size-compensated finder of the Linhof Technika 70 is lovely but it's about the size of an M.

Seriously? The M system is at the pinnacle of engineering and there is no where left to go? Hogwash, there are numerous useful innovations left to be ideated, developed and delivered. Consider how much of the M9 is still analog and not digitized. Do we need a new M10 thread? Maybe the X100 (or X200, 300) will just pass them on by..

If we lump special-edition Leicas into this last, then I can see how they could be offensive. But in as far as the special Leica is truly functional, does it really fit there?

Doug good points, but on this matter - do we really know if the new Titan innovations are functional?? Does the new LED frameline illuminator really work in the real world, or should they have left the window and augmented it with LED's? How does the holster grip function in practice? How do these things hold up over time? We'll probably never know based on the results of Titan field use..

But then that raises another issue with collecting. Collecting digital cameras now will be a far different issue to collecting film cameras. Why? Because a year later something better will come out. M9ti's are great now for the collector, but 10 years down the line they will seriously look at it as being obsolete. Whereas film cameras don't share that quality - cameras made 80 years ago take photographs the same as any new film camera made in the same format. Therefore it's is more of a collecting based on rarity and history rather than digital collecting which is based on prestige.

Agreed, and this may be a good thing, in that it will force Leica to actually focus on value-added innovation in their product to survive.

I'd like Leica to "get it right" because there's more money tied up in glass than any particular body, and I'd like that value to last. I like the machine, but not the brand positioning.

BTW, I think the new 35 lux looks great. I like the innovation that fixes focus shift problems. It would have been nice if the focus and aperture ring had rotary encoders built in and were "future ready" for the M10 and onward though..

No sour grapes, but plenty annoyed. Ok, waaay to long of a rant!

 

[sazerac]

Please God, let this be a Photoshopped image! No one wouldreally do this to a fine camera, would they?

There's got to be a matching lens to make this one desireable! 😉

 

[newspaperguy]

I think some of us are inadvertent collectors... we see something we like,
or always wanted, get it and try it... and then it just sits.

My wife refers to my "dust collection." I'm not sure she's wrong.

 

[sepiareverb]

Are there really that many people who know we are snobs because we carry Leicas?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I use a J-8 on my M8.

Let's count the heart attacks to find the snobs.

 

[sig]

People here are not fed up with the 'collectors', the latest leica bashing is due to the products they showed under photokina. Nothing new except wrapping, on top of that Leicas flagship, the M9 is turned into a overpriced* fashion accessory. Then you have the new M9 with 10 000 dollars worth of bird leather attached, new fashion accessory.

To make things even worse Fuji came in from the left with the X100, the camera everybody wanted leica to bring to photokina.

* Yes I know, it is not overpriced because somebody out there are buying it.

 

[ebino]

The important question is if its at all possible for any digital camera, no matter how preciously built to be a collector's item?

In my view a photographer has no reason to resent collectors because he can achieve whatever he wants quite cheaply and he has thousand of options. If he frets over Leica and such, its his inner collector more than the photographer in him... But at the same time the said photographer has every right to be angry at Leica for abandoning being a company for photographers and instead focusing mainly on collectors. But even that anger is mostly out of naiveté because he/she is after Leica heritage than the Leica itself -HCB and so on shot with a Leica so must I...

 

[Damaso]

Personally I feel like cameras are meant to be used but hey, if you've got the money and the fetish more power to you!

 

[chris000]

Each to their own of course, if it's your money you spend it how you want.

But for what it's worth I regard a 'collection' as being of things that you appreciate but do not use in the usual sense e.g. art, books, music, etc.

To me a camera is a tool and I can only admire its design by using it for what it was designed for. I may own a number of tools but I would not regard them as a collection as I would my collection of music.

A personal view.

I seem to have missed all the Leica 'sniping', I'm obviously not reading the right threads (or should that be wrong threads?)

 

[maddoc]

Here in Japan price for everything that is labeled "Leica" or - worse - "Leitz" are ridiculous high compared to prices in US. On the other hand, I have not seen so many Leicas actually in use as here in the streets of Tokyo or the other large cities. So a lot of collector / user types here ...

 

[John Lawrence]

Personally I feel like cameras are meant to be used but hey, if you've got the money and the fetish more power to you!

Plus one.

John

 

[damien.murphy]

I would argue that many of us users have the potential to be camera-rescuers, and think the motivation in doing so is a little different from camera collectors. There is a difference between misguided desire to rescue and use a camera (even if only to ever shoot lightly), to that of a pure collector who is more of a trophy hunter.

I've nothing against collectors, who have actually been the source of several of my most used cameras, but many people (myself included) find the practice to collect a little perverse. I'm not going to postulate that the practice of collecting should be banned, but equally I cannot understand the desire to render something a mere trophy or showpiece.

Different strokes for different folks, and to be honest in the case of Leica, I appreciate the role of collectors, who pre-M9 were probably keeping Leica afloat 🙂