climbing_vine
Well-known
Fair enough. I wonder if it might be reasonable to modify the policy a little to make it more clear, then. Since obviously a good number of people see questioning prices as a positive for the community, not a negative, spelling out: "And no questioning prices" might make your life easier if that's how it's going to be applied. Might as well have it in writing up front.
back alley
IMAGES
that is up to the boss.
climbing_vine
Well-known
Understood. Just putting it out there.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Someone suggested a question and answer function similar to eBay earlier ... I thought that was a good idea if it could be implimented.
ChrisN
Striving
I bought (most of) a Durst Laborator 1200 4x5 enlarger with the CLS 450 head yesterday for $50. It's missing the power supply and one or two other items, and some would say that I paid too much for it. As far as I'm concerned I've already gotten my money's worth in entertainment in pulling it apart, cleaning it, learning how it works, what it needs, and in the promise that this is another step towards wet printing my 4x5 negs.
Value is a very individual thing, decided solely by the buyer. As I buyer I don't need others, especially in different markets, trying to tell me what I should pay or what I should sell for. When I want that help I'll seek it. And if the items I offer for sale don't sell, that will tell me something, perhaps several things. I don't think the people who buy from the RFF classifieds are fools.
Value is a very individual thing, decided solely by the buyer. As I buyer I don't need others, especially in different markets, trying to tell me what I should pay or what I should sell for. When I want that help I'll seek it. And if the items I offer for sale don't sell, that will tell me something, perhaps several things. I don't think the people who buy from the RFF classifieds are fools.
gdi
Veteran
That's a good point Chris - I bought a SpeedGraphic (not on RFF) a while back and asked for pricing help. The estimates I got helped - I lowered my max price, but I still paid over twice the recommended price of $100 after I saw it and its condition. It works great and has a ton of extras.
Did I pay too much - maybe, but I am quite happy with it. But the seller would have rightfully been offended (or worse) had the people who helped me publicly blasted his price.
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sepiareverb
genius and moron
Not me, I'm a moron.
George S.
How many is enough?
Well, let's just leave it that I care if a member of our community gets ripped off, and you don't. But, by all means, feel free not to care.
As I also stated previously, if the seller just happens to be clueless and I post a comment that makes him realize that he should lower his price, then maybe I saved him $5 and a week's worth of time waiting for someone to post "PM Sent"...
thomasw_
Well-known
There are loads of places to price check online. But if someone doesn't care to be diligent or just wants the item for the price anyway, then so be it. The buyer chose to buy it; who is anyone to tell him what monetary value his desired item is "really" worth? Ultimately that has to be the buyer who answers to himself. I recently purchased a lens from a chap who had bought it a few weeks prior to selling it to me and he jacked the price ~300$ more. But it was worth it to me; that's just how it goes. Nobody had a duty to protect me from another guy making a profit on that gear. SimilaRLY there is no corresponding duty for us to protect others from their own choices. i do agree that I am quite free not to care about how others spend their money. I am quite glad there is no motive from an ethical standpoint or from social etiquette that would force that responsibility on me. "Take care to research, live and learn;" that seems to be the motto of the RFF classifieds.
I have no problem with sending a note privately through a PM; that would be good etiquette. The point is about whether that is good etiquette to do publicly in the comments under the Ad. I say it isn't. I think we agree here?
Krosya
Konicaze
I dont think asking for more $$ than you or someone are willing to pay translates into "ripped off". If you cant afford something - skip it - look for a better deal. Who is stopping you? To me, "ripped off" means - I took your money and either didnt deliver the item at all, or in a condition it was advertised. If someone is willing to pay asking price - it's thier business. If both parties - seller and buyer are happy, where is a problem?
I think comments in classifieds should either not exist, or be controlled by a seller. Seller, by paying for the ad space has the right to have it presented as he/she sees it best - no need for anyone to comment - good, bad or indifferent.
Gumby
Veteran
I agree wholeheartedly.
The only additional thing to consider is that RFF add a 'George S.: Consumer Protection Ombudsman" forum in the Coffee With Mentors section so folks know where to go for advise on how they should spend their money, and how much they should spend... or the converse, how much one should ask for stuff they are selling. Just a thought for how we can balance the needs of unimpeded commerce and need of people-who-offer-unsolicited-advise to provide unsolicited consumer protection.
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climbing_vine
Well-known
I'm not going to get back into this intractable debate, but there's one observation worth making. The idea that a person can go to eBay to get an idea of fair market value is ridiculous. Especially when it comes to niche items, there is far too much shill bidding, and "winning" bids that never result in a transaction, for those numbers to mean anything unless you have a large enough sample to do a meaningful statistical analysis.
(And even then, I bet the data is probably too corrupt to give a good idea. )
(And even then, I bet the data is probably too corrupt to give a good idea. )
George S.
How many is enough?
I thought the moderator warned everyone about name-calling? No need to get personal. If I were to post a comment that you don't agree with, just ignore it like you are telling me to do with regard to overpriced items in the classifieds. Or do you just GIVE advice and not heed any?
Methinks some people have over reacted to my point of view. Could they be the same individuals who tend to overprice their gear? Mmmm... I'll have to search the classifieds and see....
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Gumby
Veteran
N=30 is generally all that is needed for a p<.05.
Do you have any data to support the assertion that an overwhelming amount of ebay completed auction data are shill bids or unfulfilled sales? I agree that some are, but without knowledge of the magnitude it is difficult to discount the entire data pool.
Gumby
Veteran
OK. Good point. I will go back and edit my post to remove the term "busy-body". My most profound apologies George... I really didn't know it was that offensive or considered "name calling".
George S.
How many is enough?
One other thing I forgot to bring up while we're on the topic of what some people think is permissible for others to post and what they think isn't.
More than once I've been burned by someone here starting a thread- "Hey guys! Look at how low the bids are on this Leica lens over on ebay...auction # 390xxxxxx..." I was either already bidding on the item or watching it closely for a future bid. And I know this has happened to more than a few others here because some have posted back sarcastically but good-naturedly [I think] "Thanks a lot for torpedoing my chances in that auction!" The current CLE thread is a good example. I'm sure someone thinks they are just trying to give a heads-up and allow a fellow RFF'er to get a good deal, but what about the RFF'ers who have already bid on the auction and WOULD HAVE gotten a good deal if the auction wasn't broadcast to thousands of more potential bidders?! So, by trying to help a brother out, you screwed at least one of us!
I never complained, just did an internal "arrrghhh!" Should I kick and scream that they have no right in torpedoing "MY" auction watching and bidding? No. They're free to post whatever. Should I point out to them that we RFF'ers are all obviously computer literate, and if we were in the market for such an item we could, and possibly should have been able to find it ourselves? We could drag this out to include all manners of postings that "WE" consider a waste of time or not serving any good purpose.
More than once I've been burned by someone here starting a thread- "Hey guys! Look at how low the bids are on this Leica lens over on ebay...auction # 390xxxxxx..." I was either already bidding on the item or watching it closely for a future bid. And I know this has happened to more than a few others here because some have posted back sarcastically but good-naturedly [I think] "Thanks a lot for torpedoing my chances in that auction!" The current CLE thread is a good example. I'm sure someone thinks they are just trying to give a heads-up and allow a fellow RFF'er to get a good deal, but what about the RFF'ers who have already bid on the auction and WOULD HAVE gotten a good deal if the auction wasn't broadcast to thousands of more potential bidders?! So, by trying to help a brother out, you screwed at least one of us!
I never complained, just did an internal "arrrghhh!" Should I kick and scream that they have no right in torpedoing "MY" auction watching and bidding? No. They're free to post whatever. Should I point out to them that we RFF'ers are all obviously computer literate, and if we were in the market for such an item we could, and possibly should have been able to find it ourselves? We could drag this out to include all manners of postings that "WE" consider a waste of time or not serving any good purpose.
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Gumby
Veteran
(Response deleted by MODERATOR on 1 July 2009 @ 0758. Foul language, personal attack and name calling violation)
Paul T.
Veteran
(Response deleted by MODERATOR on 1 July 2009 @ 0758. Foul language, personal attack and name calling violation)
You, sir, have shown a rare and commendable grace in removing that word "busy-body". If only all such insults could be so effectively erased from our memories.
George S.
How many is enough?
(Response deleted by MODERATOR on 1 July 2009 @ 0758. Foul language, personal attack and name calling violation)
Oh you're sooo hysterically funny. Next time you're in my neck of the woods look me up and we'll both have a good laugh....
EDIT: Oh, I forgot the smiley. Sorry. --->
Gumby
Veteran
I rarely make it to Joisey... but you can count on me looking you up. Thanks for the invitation! I think we'd have a good time laughing together... even if it is partly from laughing AT each other!