Confusion over 90mm Leica lenses and APO?

[animefx]

I'm still waiting for my M8 to arrive while I'm considering what lens to get other than my 40mm f/2 rokkor-m I already own.

I've been seeing some AMAZING look photos from the various Leica 90mm lenses... Sometimes they are specified which version, sometimes not. I have to admit I'm a little confused about a few things with Leica's 90mm lenses, if anyone can clear this up I would be most appreciative.

- Which 90mm Leica lenses are still in production?

- I've heard there are one or two 90mm lenses that have back focusing problems with the M8 and M9 or somehow aren't "meant" for digital... Is this true? If so which version(s) of the 90mm are they referring to?

- Also, what is APO? Is the APO also an ASPH lens? Is APO better than ASPH or do they have nothing to do with eachother?

If I get a 90mm I want it to be sharp corner to corner as I might use it for landscapes and portraits as well. I've seen photos from the 90mm elmar-c for the Leica CL / Leitz Minolta CL (or CLE) and I'm not overly impressed like I am with my 40mm f/2. I also heard the 90mm summarit is the worst of the 4 summarit lenses, so I might avoid that too (I am interested in the 75 summarit however.)

If there is anything else I should know about 90mm lenses please let me know, I'm looking for a nice balance between sharpness and middle of the road price (for Leica) if possible.

 

[andredossantos]

From what i understand, a lens marked APO (apochromatic) is made partly with "low dispersion" glass which corrects aberrations. A designation of ASPH means that a lens is built with aspherical elements, which also makes for a corrected image. It may be obvious I'm not a tech guy and my answers were pretty shoddy. However, unless you have an interest in the nitty gritty just assume these designations mean you're getting a high quality piece of glass!

I have the 90mm version 1 Summicron. It's the size of a pipe and it heavy but it's a stellar performer and I quite like the "older" style (read: not APO and not ASPH) rendering. In the its a personal decision and a good way to think about it is:

image rendering style vs lens size vs cost

 

[Tim Gray]

The latest 90 Summicron is APO and ASPH. It's Leica's only 90 for the M system that is APO or ASPH. So when you see someone refer to the Leica 90 APO or Leica 90 ASPH or the 90 AA, it's the same lens, the most recent Summicron.

 

[Chuck Albertson]

The 90 AA Summicron is in production, as is the 90 Summarit (f/2.5). The 90 AA is a marvelous lens, but the Summarit is considerably cheaper and not to be sniffed at.

Don't know anything about back-focus problems.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I use version 2 (yet big, wonderful bokeh, collapsible hood, not excessively sharp for portraits).
Some people prefer version 3 because it's smaller and a bit sharper wide open... I like to think if the lens is smaller, some of the OOF character I like in my lens, did change , but not sure, as I've never compared both doing the same shot...
If you don't enjoy a bit of softness for wide open portraits, and you're after sharpness, get the current one, which I've heard is the best one for landscape...

Cheers,

Juan

 

[kzphoto]

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apochromat

APO stands for Apochromatic. Read up! APO lenses are great for digital.

FYI, the new 50 f/1.4 Summilux ASPH and the 75 Summicron ASPH are both APO lenses, though they are not advertised as such.

~k.

 

[ferider]

Currently in production, I believe, are 90 and 75 Summicron (APO & ASPH), and 90 and 75 Summarit (spheric design).

The 90 Elmarit-M (spheric) was discontinued just recently (2008).

Non-Leica M teles until recently in production are CV 75/2.5, CV 75/1.8, CV 90/3.5, ZM 85/4, ZM 85/2 (discontinued 2 months ago ?).

They are all great. Have a look at the flickr M-mount forum (see my signature) for sample photos taken with any of the above lenses.

Unless something is wrong with your M, they should all work on digital. Don't discard 75, in particular with crop factor.

Best,

Roland.

 

[Landshark]

Besides the 90/2 Summicron, there also 90/2.8 Elmarit-m, 90/2.8 Tele-Elmarit, 90/4 Elmar
Just as with the varieties of Summicron there may be several style or formulas of each of these.
The 90/4 Elmar-C you're already aware of.

 

[The Meaness]

Don't discard 75, in particular with crop factor.

This is great advice, especially if you've never used an RF before. I use a 50mm on the M8 as a portrait lens, since the crop factor brings it to 67mm fov. Personally, I have a real hard time imagining how I'd rely on the small 90mm framelines consistently to compose.

If you've used RF cameras before and know what you're looking for, I apologize - I know you didn't post asking for FL suggestions. However, if you haven't, you may want to wait until you get the camera in your hands and you can look through the VF to see the difference between the 50, 75, and 90 framelines.

Good luck!

 

[presspass]

Don't forget the current Elmar macro, a wonderfully sharp lens, collapsible, and small if you can live with the maximum of f 4.0. Unfortunately, it's not cheap either new or uses.

 

[animefx]

Thanks for the info guys. I will probably wait until I upgrade to a. M9 or M10 a few years from now before going for a 90mm. I think 75mm is as long as I'll want to go on then M8 due to the crop factor.

 

[ramosa]

This is great advice, especially if you've never used an RF before. I use a 50mm on the M8 as a portrait lens, since the crop factor brings it to 67mm fov. Personally, I have a real hard time imagining how I'd rely on the small 90mm framelines consistently to compose.

If you've used RF cameras before and know what you're looking for, I apologize - I know you didn't post asking for FL suggestions. However, if you haven't, you may want to wait until you get the camera in your hands and you can look through the VF to see the difference between the 50, 75, and 90 framelines.

Good luck!

+ 1 ... This is why I ended up with an 80 instead of 90 on my M8. In fact, with the M8 crop, I really do not like a 50mm lens, which has a 67mm field of view. My Lux 50 is a super lens, but IMO it's not a good focal length on the crop.

 

[venchka]

And now for something completely different........

In the great bang for buck/cheapo fabulous lens department: Nikkor 8.5cm/2.0 lens. A very inexpensive way to find out if the 85-90 focal length floats your boat. In the same vein, and 1 stop slower: the original Leitz 90mm f/2.8 Elmarit. The one with a band of vulcanite at the base near the lens mount. Wonderful classic rendering. Sharp without causing your eyes to bleed. Last, but not least, the last 90mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M is as sharp and apochromatic as anyone needs in a thoroughly modern image making machine.

He said, comfortable in the knowledge that all 3 are tucked safely in the rangefinder bag.

ps: If you want the real 85-90 experience, buy a film body.

 

[ka7197]

Which Leica M 90 mm lenses are still in production?

Only one—the Summarit-M 90 mm 1:2.5. [EDIT: No, it's two: the Summarit-M 90 mm 1:2.5 and the Macro-Elmar-M 90 mm 1:4 (thanks to Tim for the hint)]

Officially, there's another current 90 mm lens: the Apo-Summicron-M 90 mm 1:2 Asph ... however this one has been unavailable for purchase for the recent one or two years. It seems it really is not in current production even though it is still listed in the catalogs/web site/price lists. Lenses are made in batches of several hundred or 1,000 pieces per batch, and it seems the last batch was made years ago. No-one knows iwhen the next batch is going to be produced, or if there will be a next batch anytime soon in the first place. Rumour says a successor to the "current" Apo-Summicron-M 90 Asph (with floating elements) is under development, and the "current" one is still current only because Leica has not yet announced the successor model. But that's just that—an unofficial, unverified, uncomfirmed rumour out of thin air. Sounds plausible to me, though ...

I've heard there are one or two 90mm lenses that have back focusing problems with the M8 and M9 or somehow aren't "meant" for digital ... Is this true?

No, it's not. It's just nonsense spread by clueless people. As a matter of fact, any telephoto lenses (in particular, 90 mm and 135 mm) are very finnicky to adjust properly on a rangefinder. So the odds are that an arbitrarily picked 90 mm from the used market might be slightly out of spec. But you can always have it adjusted to match your camera by Leica's Customer Service or any skilled camera service technician.

Also, what is Apo? Is the Apo also an Asph lens?

Apo is short for apochromatic. In the narrower sense it means a lens that is colour-corrected for three colours (as opposed to the usual two). In a broader sense, it means a lens with particularly low chromatic aberrations.

Asph is short for aspherical and means a lens which includes at least one aspheric optical element. Aspheric element are difficult to produce so they are either poor quality or expensive. In the latter case (expensive) they greatly reduce all kinds of spheric aberrations. So they are, in a way, just the contrary to apochromatic—apo and asph are two entirely different things— but when both are combined in one single lens then they will complement each other wonderfully.

I also heard the Summarit-M 90 mm is the worst of the four Summarit-M lenses, so I might avoid that too (I am interested in the Summarit-M 75 mm however).

Even if the 90 mm really was the worst of the current Summarit-M line it still doesn't mean it was a bad lens which was to be avoided. It would just mean the other three were even better—if it was true in the first place (it isn't).

Both the 75 mm and 90 mm Summarit-M lenses are excellent—even though at the end of the day the Apo-Summicron-M Asph versions of these two focal lengths are slightly better overall (at more than twice the price, they really should!) ... however not better in every aspect. With both Summarit-M lenses you won't be disappointed for landscape and portraiture work.

If there is anything else I should know about 90 mm lenses please let me know, I'm looking for a nice balance between sharpness and middle of the road price (for Leica) if possible.

The Elmarit-M 90 mm 1:2.8 (the latest version with built-in retractable hood) is just as good as good as the 90 mm lenses discussed above, just a little slower. It has been discontinued from production only a few years ago. The Summicron-M 90 mm (non-Apo, non-Asph) is pretty good, too, and not very expensive in today's used market. However it's not particularly sharp at full aperture—nice for soft-ish lady's portraits but for landscape work it should be stopped down a little.

But please keep in mind—any 90 mm lens can be slightly off on your camera, even a new one right out of the box. If it is then send it in for an adjustment.

 

[Tim Gray]

Only one—the Summarit-M 90 mm 1:2.5.

Officially, there's another current 90 mm lens: the Apo-Summicron-M 90 mm 1:2 Asph ... however this one has been unavailable for purchase for the recent one or two years. It seems it really is not in current production even though it is still listed in the catalogs/web site/price lists.

As stated above, I think the 90 Macro is still being made too.

 

[ka7197]

As stated above, I think the 90 Macro is still being made too.

Oh yes, you're right. Forgot that one ... which is funny as the Macro-Elmar-M 90 mm 1:4 is a very interesting lens actually. Tiny, sharp, and will reach the highest magnification of all Leica M lenses (short of using a Visoflex).

 

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, it's a cool lens. It's the 90 I went with.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

When you focus close a 90 Summicron wide open, background is really OOF, even very close to the focused point, but what surprised me the most about mine, was the DOF in such case: almost nothing! I think I remember, when I did the test after receiving the lens (tripod and a ruler) no more than two millimeters were on focus... And even focusing carefully with a Bessa-T (longer effective baselength than most Leicas, and tripod as I said) I couldn't get focused the very same point of the ruler, although the three images I did for every focused distance/f-stop, in this f/2 1mt case were close... And in real life, it's really hard to get on focus a precise point on someone's face: sometimes you will, but you'll never know for sure until you explore the image very close... So, to me my 90 f/2 is basically an effect lens: great classic bokeh/portrait lens, but always considering it's hard to focus in the closest range when wide open... Another fact is it's a 90, so handheld it isn't easy to get sharp results unless fast speeds are used... All in all, if you think of using the lens for other things more than portraits with lots of OOF zones on the image, a smaller, lighter 90 lens makes more sense, like the 2.8 or 4 Leica ones, or the 3.5 CV... Other great options for portraiture are the 1.8 85 Canon and the 1.8 75 CV...

My 90 Summicron is my hardest to focus lens... And I see very well: I focus perfectly my 40 at 1.4 even with my R4M! And stopping down doesn't help as much as I imagined before owning it: going to 2.8 or 4 doesn't change things to much if you're focusing close...

All that, in case you have not used a 90 f/2 RF lens... If you have, sorry for the long description...

Cheers,

Juan

 

[Roger Hicks]

Most apochromatic (Apo) lenses bring 3 colours to identical focus -- hence the paint-filled, engraved red, green and blue lines on the mount of both original and modern Apo-Lanthars -- instead of just the red and blue of an achromat, but a few apparently bring four colours to a common focus (I don't know which lenses: Brian might). It is perfectly possible to build apo lenses with only common (spherical) curves.

Aspheric surfaces allow better correction with the same number of elements (glasses), or the same correction with fewer elements. There are three kinds: ground and polished glass (the most expensive, used only by a very few manufacturers in a very few lenses), moulded glass (hard to do well, and suited only to small glasses if you want maximum quality, but good enough for Leica in some applications) and 'hybrid', a glass spherical element with 'optical resin' (plastic, if you're being rude) moulded on to it.

Hybrids have not been around long enough to know much about their durability, but as far as I am aware, that is the only major concern that has ever been raised about them. Apparently they offer rather fewer options to the lens designer than glass aspherics, but they still offer better correction than spherical surfaces. Certainly, I've has the 90/3,5 Apo-Lanthar since it came out, and it's still an excellent lens. That's from the point of view of someone who also owns a 90 Summicron pre-aspheric and a 75 Summicron (aspheric, because they all are).

Cheers,

R.

 

[LCT]

When you focus close a 90 Summicron wide open... it's really hard to get on focus a precise point on someone's face...I focus perfectly my 40 at 1.4...

No problem with 40 (or 50) mm lenses at f/1.4 but 90's exceed the accuracy range of the M8 at f/2, due to its 0.68x VF and 1.33x crop factor. Same for Bessas, Leica CL, Epson R-D1 and 0.58x film Ms BTW.