antiquark
Derek Ross
Harper is indeed a true conservative... he brought in the first budget deficit after 12 years of surpluses!
Spoks
Well-known
Now you are talking. Because there is no perfect health care system. If we make it all free people will see their doctors out of pure boredom. Like my mother.
Here in Norway we tax sigarettes, alcohol and cars because these products have a enormous cost side. Particularly on health care. The social democrats here in Norway claim that 'the smokers themselves', through taxes on sigarettes have to pay for the extra health cost that smoking is causing.
The same with alcohol. A carton of 24 - 0,33 l of beer costs about $ 100 here in Norway. We have no public debt (we have a public fortune of 200 billion $). In Denmark the same carton costs 42$. Denmark has a public debt of 'about' 25% of GDP. In Germany the same carton costs 8,50$. Germany has a public debt of 45% of GDP - and increasing.
See my point?
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Harper is indeed a true conservative... he brought in the first budget deficit after 12 years of surpluses!
The man who took the word Progressive out of the Progressive Conservative Party. You don't have to wonder why.
Bob
Well, since America wasn't born in 1935, 'always' is probably not an accurate description.
Both of those entitlements are under water, so I guess 'other people's money' has finally dried up.
Both of those entitlements are under water, so I guess 'other people's money' has finally dried up.
Yes indeed, but that doesn't make it a BS argument that people have to pay for other people's poor choices.
antiquark
Derek Ross
Fine, but how do you separate out the diseases caused by bad choices? It's not possible, really. Take lung cancer for example. There are people who smoke but don't get lung cancer. There are people who don't smoke but get lung cancer. So you can't really say, "oh, this guy has smokes and has lung cancer, therefore he gets no money."
Or are you suggesting that there should be NO health taxes, because it's not possible to determine 100% which diseases are caused by poor choices?
antiquark
Derek Ross
Both of those entitlements are under water, so I guess 'other people's money' has finally dried up.
There's an easy fix for that: raise taxes!
Yes! That's the plan!
More money to go thru Washington to be pilfered, with lower quality results, and it still doesn't cover everyone, while ruining the economy. Way to go Obama/Pelosi/Reid!
More money to go thru Washington to be pilfered, with lower quality results, and it still doesn't cover everyone, while ruining the economy. Way to go Obama/Pelosi/Reid!
Yes, there should be no health taxes, period.
I'm suggesting that people be allowed to manage their own health by buying their own insurance just like they do with their car insurance, homeowners insurance, renters insurance, and every other insurance. Not tie it to their employers, open it up so customers can purchase from any company they want, regardless of what state they are located in. And have all health insurance premiums and health costs be tax deductible.
"Call Geico and get up to 15% off your health insurance." I can see the advertisements now, companies having to compete to get business. Imagine that!
Imagine customers being in control of who gets the business. This is the same thing people do now with cosmetic surgery and lasik. Let the buyer do the shopping and know what it is going to cost before they spend it. Due to competition, the quality will go up, and the prices will go down, just as they have with cosmetic surgery and lasik.
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Spoks
Well-known
- Or a hefty tax on alcohol and sigarettes.
antiquark
Derek Ross
You can use California as an example. If it were a country, it would have the 11th largest economy in the world! link
It has 45 health insurance companies, talk about competition! link
You would need imagination to see health insurers cutting prices. Instead you seem them cranking the price by +30%. link
Same thing in Obama's plan. There is no public option, and the gov will not tell you where to buy your insurance. You can buy it from whoever you want.
Cosmetic surgery is a "want" not a "need," and can't be compared to life-threatening illnesses.
It has 45 health insurance companies, talk about competition! link
You would need imagination to see health insurers cutting prices. Instead you seem them cranking the price by +30%. link
Same thing in Obama's plan. There is no public option, and the gov will not tell you where to buy your insurance. You can buy it from whoever you want.
Cosmetic surgery is a "want" not a "need," and can't be compared to life-threatening illnesses.
dmr
Registered Abuser
Uh, it's definitely a "need" in cases like a traumatic injury, or as a follow-up to some radical life-saving cancer surgery, which can otherwise leave one with some rather hideous deformities.
That's the dirty big secret in the Obama plan...the government dictates the prices to the insurers, which then eliminates any competition. How long before they dictate a price where the insurers say 'enough?' Then voila, the so called 'public option.'
Cosmetic surgery and lasik are two examples of medical procedures where the actual customer is in control of the entire purchasing process. And those two examples work well to show how this can lower cost and increase quality, due to competition. There is no reason the same process cannot work for any other medical need.
The choice is clear: free market competition works, government control results in higher taxes, lower quality, mismanagement of the taxed funds, and ultimately bankruptcy of the programs, and perhaps worse. It simply does not make sense to follow a regular pattern of failure when there is a clear option of success that does not require any taxes at all.
That's why this is not a health care bill at all.
I'm done...adios.
Cosmetic surgery and lasik are two examples of medical procedures where the actual customer is in control of the entire purchasing process. And those two examples work well to show how this can lower cost and increase quality, due to competition. There is no reason the same process cannot work for any other medical need.
The choice is clear: free market competition works, government control results in higher taxes, lower quality, mismanagement of the taxed funds, and ultimately bankruptcy of the programs, and perhaps worse. It simply does not make sense to follow a regular pattern of failure when there is a clear option of success that does not require any taxes at all.
That's why this is not a health care bill at all.
I'm done...adios.
eli griggs
Well-known
Sorry not to have responded sooner but when I tried to return to the thread when it originally posted, I could not find it.
Roger, when a democratic republics representatives do not vote the will of the people, but a party line, they should be taken to task for their misdeeds and punished at the polls as well as socially for their betrayal of trust.
Also, in the best tradition of a democracy, remember that the only bipartisanship vote on this thing was a "NO" vote.
"The power to tax involves the power to destroy;...the power to destroy may defeat and render useless the power to create...." Robert Heinlein
parsec1, read more Heinlein, he didn't only write of wars or of human/alien relationships. As far as his Starship Troopers military, it may be that he was thinking of the Israel model and his own military service.
crawdiddy, driving is a privilege and you're not required to have a license or even an auto. Being a citizen is automatic and this law makes all citizens, with the notable exceptions of the President, his family, Congress and employes of Congress, subjugated to the State; I prefer not to be enslaved to the State. If you really hate driving insurance, take a bus, buy a bike or start walking, at least in this case, your Right not to drive is not infringed.[/COLOR]
Roger, when a democratic republics representatives do not vote the will of the people, but a party line, they should be taken to task for their misdeeds and punished at the polls as well as socially for their betrayal of trust.
Also, in the best tradition of a democracy, remember that the only bipartisanship vote on this thing was a "NO" vote.
"The power to tax involves the power to destroy;...the power to destroy may defeat and render useless the power to create...." Robert Heinlein
parsec1, read more Heinlein, he didn't only write of wars or of human/alien relationships. As far as his Starship Troopers military, it may be that he was thinking of the Israel model and his own military service.
crawdiddy, driving is a privilege and you're not required to have a license or even an auto. Being a citizen is automatic and this law makes all citizens, with the notable exceptions of the President, his family, Congress and employes of Congress, subjugated to the State; I prefer not to be enslaved to the State. If you really hate driving insurance, take a bus, buy a bike or start walking, at least in this case, your Right not to drive is not infringed.[/COLOR]
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antiquark
Derek Ross
Uh, it's definitely a "need" in cases like a traumatic injury, or as a follow-up to some radical life-saving cancer surgery, which can otherwise leave one with some rather hideous deformities.
Sorry, I should have been more clear that I was thinking about things like liposuction and breast implants. Reconstructive surgery as you described is definitely a "need."
antiquark
Derek Ross
The Obama plan has no price controls. The insurers can charge what they want.
Dogmatic much?
dfoo
Well-known
For many things its clear that the free market does _not_ work. In fact, if you look at many essential services in the US, and indeed in any country, the ones that work best are government owned & controlled. If you want to look at the disaster caused by privatization of essential services you need look no further than Enron, and the UK rail system.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
By never getting ill.
You can be too poor to afford a motor-car.
You can't be too poor to avoid getting ill.
If anything, the opposite.
Cheers,
R.
jarski
Veteran
Popcorn anyone?
btw thanks for the congrats.
ran out of mine
I think its fair to say Europe has small nanny-states, especially up here in North
Roger Hicks
Veteran
As indeed they are. Not all that quickly, but better a sluggish response than one that is over-hasty to the point of hysterical.
If the Republicans can (a) get elected and (b) overturn this bill, so there is no longer any state-mandated insurance for the poor, I'll assume it's the will of the people.
Right now, I assume that Obama's bill is the will of the people. Not all the people, it's true, but hey, democracy (even representative democracy) is about majority votes.
Cheers,
R.
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