Contax II lens compatibility?

[Alex1416]

Hello everyone!

Ive been into rangefinders now for a year and have amassed a nice collection to keep me shooting film hopefully until my little girls inherit them a long time from now lol

I started with Leica, then got a pair of nice Nikons, and now have gotten a beautiful prewar Contax II from approximately 1937 (still need to confirm serials). It came with a flawless (when it comes to the glass) Jupiter 3. Im on the lookout for a Sonnar f2 just to have the camera the way it might have been when it was used in its infancy.

Im sure this has been asked many times here, or in the Nikon section, but i just wanted to confirm again...

When it comes to using lenses between the 2 systems. Which ones should i avoid?

On the Nikon side i have an original Nikkor 5cm f1.4, and a millennium edition 50/1.4. Also a Nikkor 35mm f1.8, and Color Skopar 35mm f2.5.

Ive read that the 35mm lenses shouldn't be an issue. But still want to ask anyone who has experience on this if, for example, the Nikkor 35 won't have any issues wide open at f1.8 or f2 on the Contax?

I know that zone focusing these 35mm and and the 50's around f8 shouldn't be an issue on the Contax.
I also know that using the 50's wide open and up close should be avoided.

Will the same issue occur using the Contax 50 lenses on the Nikons?

Thank you all in advance for taking the time to read this and helping out.

Contax II + Jupiter 3 50mm F1.5 (with HP5 inside) by Alex Aguilera, on Flickr

 

[Robert Lai]

Zeiss put the 50mm f/1.5 C-Sonnar glass into a limited edition lens in Nikon S (RF) mount. I am using it on my Contax IIa, and it seems to focus perfectly. Henry Scherer is the one who tipped me on this. He is convinced that Zeiss actually made it in Contax mount, but Zeiss insisted in correspondence with him that it was made for Nikon S mount.
BTW - if this lens is missing it's specially labeled lens hood, the Voigtlander LH-4N hood is the identical hood, just with a different logo.

Anyway, I don't think it matters much. It is in proper focus for me at all ranges and all apertures.

The Jupiter 3 can be a wonderful lens. It is the original pre-war Zeiss Sonnar 1.5, made in the Ukraine. Mine was made in 1964, and it is almost indistinguishable from the Carl Zeiss Stuttgart Sonnar 50 1.5 that I have.

I also have the Nikon S mount Voigtlander 25mm f/4. This I purchased from Cameraquest, and it comes with the plastic 25mm viewfinder included. I bought it for my Contax IIa in lieu of the 21mm lens. I already have the Cosina Voigtlander 21mm f/4 in LTM mount. Anyway, a 25mm f/4 has so much depth of field even wide open that I can't detect any focusing errors.

I'm sure that by the time you get to the 85mm or longer lenses, that there will be a discrepancy in focus between the Nikon S and Contax mount lenses.

 

[RJ-]

Hi Alex

When it comes to using lenses between the 2 systems. Which ones should i avoid?

The multi-coated Nikkor 5cm f1.4 is a fine lens which works on your Contax II. I parted ways with mine over 10 years ago in favour of the original uncoated Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f1.5 (Jena). Zeiss released the Sonnar 50mm f1.5 in a ZM Leica rangefinder mount - the imaging characteristics of the Nikkor 5cm f1.5 falls in between these 80 years. I've never noticed any focussing error for general photography use with the Nikkor 5cm f1.4 on a Contax II. Theoretically the error margin due to the longer rangefinder base of the Contax II should be there, but practically it is little consequence. Unless you are making 20x24" enlargements, you are unlikely to notice the rangefinder base length difference focussing the Nikkor f1.4 at maximum aperture.

At the 5cm focal length, the only lenses to avoid perhaps, are the ones with fungal attacked multi-coatings, mount nobbled post-repair attempts or swatching of the lens elements by technicians feigning a Zeiss Sonnar lens, mounting inferior elements into a Zeiss bayonet, or worn bayonet mountings which stop the lens from locking on.

On the Nikon side i have an original Nikkor 5cm f1.4, and a millennium edition 50/1.4. Also a Nikkor 35mm f1.8, and Color Skopar 35mm f2.5.

Too many Nikkors, not enough Skopars 🙂
I don't know the Nikkor 35mm f1.8 although would love to after a forum member here recommended it as a fast lens for the Contax II.

My experience is mostly with the Sonnar f1.5 (uncoated, rigid); Sonnar f2 (uncoated, collapsible) and Sonnar f2 rigid, uncoated) and the Jupiter version. Despite having 5 of these 5cm Sonnars, I perceive differences in them (imagination?) which makes choosing which ones to go with challenging.

That's right - there are no cross-compatibility issues using the 35mm Skopar f2.5 with either Contax II or Nikon S rangefinder. I don't know about the Nikkor f1.8 due to lack of contact with it. The other guys here have some experience with it.

The Skopar 35mm f2.5 is rangefinder coupled: it is precise for wide-open shooting on your Contax II at the minimum focus distance. Comparing it to the Leica ZM/LTM mount version, it is identical optically. Focussing is easier on the Contax helicoid and precise at f2.5; you can zone focus, although there is no reason for not using the superb rangefinder base on either rangefinder.

It is a very different lens than the original Zeiss Biogon 3.5cm f2.8 lens. I (foolishly) relinquished mine years ago, thinking I would be happier without the added external viewfinder, and only recently have reacquainted myself with its superb imaging character. The modern Zeiss ZM Biogon updates it significantly in corner sharpness and flare control, although this one is the one to be fond of. Since you are using a Contax II, you can use either Zeiss Biogon pre-war (large rear element) or post-war (designed too avoid crashing into the IIa shutter curtain).

Like Robert, I'm loving the Voigtlander 25mm SC f4 Skopar wide-angle lens for the Contax or Nikon S type rangefinders (the SC epithet indicates cross-compatibility) This lens is better designed than the previous iterations for the Leica LTM/ZM mount: it is actually rangefinder coupled instead of zone focussing. You can shoot wide-open at f4 at the minimum focussing distance well within the tolerances of the rangefinder base difference and retain critical image sharpness.

85mm wise, the Russian Jupiter lenses are easier to trial and experiment with. I'm afraid I've not found the motivation to use mine since acquiring it: it protrudes too far forward and turns the Contax rangefinder into the shape of a SLR (especially the Contax III series).

Look forward to seeing your work.

Kind regards,
RJ

 

[johank]

The non-fitting is the prewar Biogon 3,5 F2,8 in the IIa and IIIa. When the new shutter was made in Alumnium, the distance back in the Dark Chamber got less deep.
The West made 35mm from the 50s fit all. East Germany built 35mm with the old length. The Russian copy is of prewar length.
Contax II and III fits all.

 

[furcafe]

Not much to add, though there is a real difference between the Nikon RF & Contax RF focusing (based on the different 50mm standards). Nikon has admitted it & my experience & those of others confirms it. You can see for yourself by shooting a test roll or 2 with a yard stick/measuring tape (you can also see the effects of the Sonnar focus shift). Of course, if you don't shoot wide open & close very often (not that either the Nikon or Contax focus that close by modern standards), you wouldn't necessarily notice it, especially in the 28-50mm range.

(1) No lenses to absolutely avoid since there are no actual physical impediments as with the Contax IIa/IIIa.
(2) There is enough DoF, even at f/1.8 or f/2 to cover up most of the difference between systems, so don't sweat it.
(3) Yes, but if in doubt, just focus bracket.

. . .

When it comes to using lenses between the 2 systems. Which ones should i avoid?

On the Nikon side i have an original Nikkor 5cm f1.4, and a millennium edition 50/1.4. Also a Nikkor 35mm f1.8, and Color Skopar 35mm f2.5.

Ive read that the 35mm lenses shouldn't be an issue. But still want to ask anyone who has experience on this if, for example, the Nikkor 35 won't have any issues wide open at f1.8 or f2 on the Contax?

I know that zone focusing these 35mm and and the 50's around f8 shouldn't be an issue on the Contax.
I also know that using the 50's wide open and up close should be avoided.

Will the same issue occur using the Contax 50 lenses on the Nikons?

Thank you all in advance for taking the time to read this and helping out.

 

[steveyork]

I always understood that the Zeiss and Nikkor wides could be interchanged, but not the standards or longer.

I too have Leica, Nikon and pre-war Contax, but other then an Amedeo adapter, everything has stayed with its' native camera. Maybe I should do some experimenting.

 

[steveyork]

My experience is mostly with the Sonnar f1.5 (uncoated, rigid); Sonnar f2 (uncoated, collapsible) and Sonnar f2 rigid, uncoated) and the Jupiter version. Despite having 5 of these 5cm Sonnars, I perceive differences in them (imagination?) which makes choosing which ones to go with challenging.

Relatively speaking, how rare (or not) is a pre-war Sonnar, f/2 in a rigid mount? Gubas in his voluminous work states: "The F/2 Sonnar originally was offered as a rigid lens but it was later available in a version that collapsed into the body of the camera. Once this collapsible version became available, the rigid was discontinued as the firm wanted to emphasize that the camera was portable and pocketable."

Seen lots of the collapsible f/2 Sonnars, but recently came across a rigid one with a serial number dating from 1936. The above quote made me think this mount hadn't made it so far, but here it is, in my hands.

Just curious.

 

[richardHaw]

i use both nikon and contax rf cameras. the contax are more quirky in many respects, they are fun to use, very much like driving an old vw beetle 😱😱😱

 

[Bill Jones]

Relatively speaking, how rare (or not) is a pre-war Sonnar, f/2 in a rigid mount? Gubas in his voluminous work states: "The F/2 Sonnar originally was offered as a rigid lens but it was later available in a version that collapsed into the body of the camera. Once this collapsible version became available, the rigid was discontinued as the firm wanted to emphasize that the camera was portable and pocketable."

Seen lots of the collapsible f/2 Sonnars, but recently came across a rigid one with a serial number dating from 1936. The above quote made me think this mount hadn't made it so far, but here it is, in my hands.

Just curious.

The rigid mount 5cm f2 Sonnar was standard thru the Contax I production era.
The rigid mount version with the scale on front (s/n 1,515,101 to 1,606,900) is mentioned in Zeiss Ikon Instructions for the 5520/1 reproduction stand.

Kuc shows the rigid mount 5cm f2 Sonnar s/n 1755287 (Bild 13.7) in Auf den Spuren der Contax Band 1. By s/n this should be a 1936 lens.

The chrome-plated collapsable mount was introduced with the Contax II. In their early advertising Zeiss Ikon showed a collapsable mount 5cm f2 Sonnar s/n 1606988 on a Contax II. The same picture is used in the Contax II instruction book.

So there was an overlap in the production of the lens mount types and you should expect a Contax I to have a rigid mount 5cm f2 Sonnar.

Bill

 

[jonmanjiro]

This is the compatibility chart in the manual for the Voigtlander Bessa R2S/C (the Contax mount and Nikon S-mount Bessas) for compatibility of 50mm and 85mm lenses of one system when used on a camera from the other system. Focus distances are the columns on the left side, aperture settings are across the top, X indicates not in focus and O indicates in focus.

The Cosina Voigtlander S/SC mount lenses are all made to the Nikon S-mount standard. The 35mm Skopar and wider are designated SC, even though they're actually S-mount, because they work just fine on Contax bodies too. The Skopar 50/2.5, Nokton 50/1.5, and Apo-Lanthar 85/3.5 are designated S for S-mount only because they don't focus properly on Contax cameras at close distances.

 

[RJ-]

Relatively speaking, how rare (or not) is a pre-war Sonnar, f/2 in a rigid mount? Gubas in his voluminous work states: "The F/2 Sonnar originally was offered as a rigid lens but it was later available in a version that collapsed into the body of the camera. Once this collapsible version became available, the rigid was discontinued as the firm wanted to emphasize that the camera was portable and pocketable."

Seen lots of the collapsible f/2 Sonnars, but recently came across a rigid one with a serial number dating from 1936. The above quote made me think this mount hadn't made it so far, but here it is, in my hands.

Just curious.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the interesting background. Hope you get to make some images from the 1936 rigid Sonnar too. Maybe the earliest one will become your favourite.

It was really hard trying to find a lens cap for these 5cm Sonnars, to the point it was easier picking up another spare body to mount it. Only to find that the spare body came with another Sonnar lens...

 

[RJ-]

Is the helical rotational difference resulting from the shorter 2 inch rangefinder base of the Nikon, in contrast to the longer 4 inches of the Contax rangefinder, workable for the Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f1.5 lens mounted on a Contax II/III/a?

I wonder if you have tried mounting a Voigtlander 50mm f1.5 S lens onto a Contax II rangefinder to focus <3metre, to zone focus just the focus shift segment of this difference?

Perhaps the calibration difference might render the Nikon mount lens more useful for focussing the extreme Infrared wavelengths (like Kodak HIE) on a Contax rangefinder, since the error difference forms a makeshift IR compensation, albeit imperfectly.


Kind regards,
RJ

 

[jonmanjiro]

The effective rangefinder base length only determines the focusing accuracy of the system. The longer the effective rangefinder base length, the easier it is to focus longer/faster lenses accurately.

The Nikon S2 and later have an effective rangefinder base length of 60mm, and that's more than enough to focus a 135mm lens, so the 4 inch (is it really that long?) rangefinder base length of the Contax is overkill really.

For differences between Nikon S-mount and Contax mount, I suggest reading though this old thread with a focus on the comments by Brian Sweeney (he knows what he's talking about, and its a shame he's no longer here).

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62494

 

[wes loder]

The S and C mounts are the same depth. Which is why even the long lenses match at infinity. The problem is the pitch on the internal focusing helicoid. The Contax takes 274 degrees to get down to 3 feet. The Nikon only takes 270 degrees. Easy to see, just turn out the built-in helicoid and see where it stops. This throws off the rangefinder focus of longer lenses.

 

[Highway 61]

Will the same issue occur using the Contax 50 lenses on the Nikons ?

Best thing is to perform your own try-error tests first and see what you find out.

As time went by I realized that the Contax/Nikon incompatibility, which has been demonstrated by maths and can't be said to be a hoax, is mainly for 85mm, 105mm and 135mm lenses when not used at infinity & from wide-open to f/5.6.

I figured out that all my Nikon 50mm lenses worked absolutely fine on my Contax bodies and that my Zeiss 50mm lenses worked as fine on my Nikon bodies. For instance my collapsible prewar Sonnar f/2 gives perfect results for close-up portraits at f/2.8 on my Nikon bodies and there is no focusing error which I can see when I use it on the Contax.

At the end of the day, inherent Sonnar lenses focus shift between f/1.5 and f/2.8 combined with mechanical tolerances (lens mount plane to film plane distance, lens assembly itself, slightest errors of the rangefinder optical unit) may very well be at user's benefit and may very well give you some full usability of both the Nikkors 50mm on your Contax and the Zeiss 50mm on your Nikon, at all distances and apertures.

In any case your Jupiter-3, whatever body you use it on, will probably show many more problems by itself due to its own questionable build quality than what the combination of a Nikkor 50mm with a Contax, and vice-versa, will do. 😉

With 35mm and wider lenses, I use whatever I want (Nikkors 35/1.8, 35/2.5 and 28/3.5 on the Contax and Biogons 35/2.8 and 21/4.5 on the Nikon) at all distances and apertures without thinking of anything else than the photo I'm taking, and so far it works perfect.

 

[RJ-]

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62494

Hi Jon,

not sure the linked thread is relevant to the Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f1.5 S lens. There seems to be no trace of Mr Sweeney there too. The thread considers mostly the Carl Zeiss Sonnar f1.5 lens.

Wes -

Thanks for clarifying the 4 degree mechanical difference in pitch.

The vintage coated Nikkor 5cm f1.4 lens worked fine <3m on my Contax II (Mike Elek in the above thread has also found this to be, thus the OP is fine with his Nikkors). I'm wondering if the modern Voigtlander 50mm f1.5 S for Nikon rangefinders will also do so for panchromatic film.

Since infrared light for Kodak HIE hits at the 800nm+ light spectrum range i.e. requiring more turning of the helical, I'm hypothesising that the focus difference for a wide open Voigtlander 50mm f1.5 lens [Nikon mount], focussed at a point less than 3metres on a Contax II [Contax focussing baselength], may be minimised by the inherent mechanical differences of the lens pitch, and the body's focussing base for infrared photography. With panchromatic film, the difference, if at all significant, will show up, more, if the difference is greater than human error in focussing, as a focussing error and working out the focus correction will have to be applied manually.

Perhaps this is a question I'll have to try and answer through trialling.

Many thanks.


Kind regards,
RJ

 

[jonmanjiro]

Hi Jon,

not sure the linked thread is relevant to the Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f1.5 S lens. There seems to be no trace of Mr Sweeney there too. The thread considers mostly the Carl Zeiss Sonnar f1.5 lens.

Oops my bad. I accidentally linked the wrong thread. And now cannot find the right thread :bang: I'll update the link when I do find the right one.

Re the Voigtlander Nokton 50/1.5 in S-mount. I've owned one and its a decent lens. It will front focus slightly on a Contax body - about 10cm front focus wide open and at MFD if the lens and body are perfectly in spec. If not perfectly in spec (but still within the tolerance range), the errors may stack up in your favour. Only way to know is trial and error.

I have no experience with infrared photography or Kodak HIE.

 

[RJ-]

Thanks Jon -

I'm waiting for the Nokton 50mm f1.5 S to arrive already.

Too many Voigtlander lenses now...not enough Biometars, Herars and Tanars...

RJ

 

[steveyork]

The rigid mount 5cm f2 Sonnar was standard thru the Contax I production era.
The rigid mount version with the scale on front (s/n 1,515,101 to 1,606,900) is mentioned in Zeiss Ikon Instructions for the 5520/1 reproduction stand.

Kuc shows the rigid mount 5cm f2 Sonnar s/n 1755287 (Bild 13.7) in Auf den Spuren der Contax Band 1. By s/n this should be a 1936 lens.

The chrome-plated collapsable mount was introduced with the Contax II. In their early advertising Zeiss Ikon showed a collapsable mount 5cm f2 Sonnar s/n 1606988 on a Contax II. The same picture is used in the Contax II instruction book.

So there was an overlap in the production of the lens mount types and you should expect a Contax I to have a rigid mount 5cm f2 Sonnar.

Bill

Thanks for the information.

Just for the record, my silver f/2 Sonnar in rigid mount has a serial number of 1866409.

 

[Alex1416]

wow thank you all for the responses!!!
I didn't think that i would get so many Contax "aficionados" to chime in!

I feel much better now knowing that i can interchange the 35mm lenses without any problems. And also that the 50mm lenses shouldn't give any problems for the most part.

I did test the Jupiter lens on my Leica M240, with the Amadeo adapter that is designed for the nikons, and it worked perfectly. The rangefinder and live view both matched perfectly while shooting a few test images wide open. Thus i figured it wouldn't be much of a problem interchanging the 50mm lenses.

Unfortunately i did not get a change to test the camera much. Only managed to get 10 shots through the Contax 2 before the spool turning mechanism stopped functioning. So the sprockets were feeding the film, but the spool was not taking up the film, so it jammed. I managed to save the film though and load it on my Nikon S3. Also sent the Contax to repair immediately. I guess you can't be surprised if something fails on an 81 year old camera lol.
In the meantime, i am waiting on a Sonnar Jena 50/2 i should be getting sometime next week. Cant wait to try it out on the Nikon S3 for now, then set it up permanently on the Contax when it comes back from CLA.

Hope you all have a great weekend and thanks for all the information and help!

Alex.