radixsrt
Member
Hello everyone! Recently I thought of a little project for myself and picked up a broken contax ii and Peter Tooke's repair manual. When I first got the camera, the winding knob was stuck and would not turn at all. I opened up the camera, removed the top plate, and the back shutter casting. I found a loose screw inside the shutter assembly, and after some searching I returned it to its original place. Afterwards, I was able to turn the winding knob and cycle the shutter.
The next issue was that the speeds are way off, and the slow speeds hang up completely for some time. 1/500 was around 1/30, and anything below 1/250 would just hang, with the lower curtain sliding down at normal speed, but the upper curtain would just get stuck at parts and take a long time to return to original position. After discovering this issue, I removed the shutter crate from the camera body. A couple things to note here: there are some washers/a light shield that is supposed to slide out of the shutter assembly when it is removed which is mentioned in many places online and in Tooke's manual. I had no washers or light shield present in my camera... I suspect it may have been negligently opened up in the past.
Next, I attempted to remove the light shield over the curtain rollers, but was unable as the top curtain roller catches the shield and does not allow it to move. I suspect I would have to remove the top curtain roller before I can remove the shield. After this, I decided to soak the assembly in lighter fluid, which got some gunk and stuff out. However, when I try to cycle the shutter now (with the shield in place), the winding mechanism does not actually engage the shutter curtains anymore. I looked at some older threads, which suggest that this may be curtain desynchonization, but I'm not sure if this is the case.
Anyway, I would like some advice as to how to proceed. Keep in mind also that I have not lubricated the assembly yet. Should I try to lubricate it without removing anymore parts (I think this would be difficult to reach)? Also, I'll send a picture of the curtain ribbons later today, I think they may be the originals but I'm not sure. They seemed in decent condition to me, but maybe since I'm already this far, I may as well go the full way, as I do have some aki-asahi ribbons laying around the house from a zorki-1 repair.
Thanks for any help!
The next issue was that the speeds are way off, and the slow speeds hang up completely for some time. 1/500 was around 1/30, and anything below 1/250 would just hang, with the lower curtain sliding down at normal speed, but the upper curtain would just get stuck at parts and take a long time to return to original position. After discovering this issue, I removed the shutter crate from the camera body. A couple things to note here: there are some washers/a light shield that is supposed to slide out of the shutter assembly when it is removed which is mentioned in many places online and in Tooke's manual. I had no washers or light shield present in my camera... I suspect it may have been negligently opened up in the past.
Next, I attempted to remove the light shield over the curtain rollers, but was unable as the top curtain roller catches the shield and does not allow it to move. I suspect I would have to remove the top curtain roller before I can remove the shield. After this, I decided to soak the assembly in lighter fluid, which got some gunk and stuff out. However, when I try to cycle the shutter now (with the shield in place), the winding mechanism does not actually engage the shutter curtains anymore. I looked at some older threads, which suggest that this may be curtain desynchonization, but I'm not sure if this is the case.
Anyway, I would like some advice as to how to proceed. Keep in mind also that I have not lubricated the assembly yet. Should I try to lubricate it without removing anymore parts (I think this would be difficult to reach)? Also, I'll send a picture of the curtain ribbons later today, I think they may be the originals but I'm not sure. They seemed in decent condition to me, but maybe since I'm already this far, I may as well go the full way, as I do have some aki-asahi ribbons laying around the house from a zorki-1 repair.
Thanks for any help!
James Evidon
Established
Paperweight?
radixsrt
Member
I sure hope not... I'm determined to make this work out.
jgrainger
Established
It's a year or two since I last disassembled a Contax - but will be doing one in the next few months.
The awkward thing can be to remove the blinds and the large gear, then get it all back together in time (a mismatch of teeth here will allow the camera to wind but not to the correct point, too much to get all speeds, or too little - it can cause the mechanism to jam).
I'd start from the winding knob and make sure it's engaging the gear underneath it, then work along until there's a break in the chain of transferred motion. double check the simple stuff too - such as the shutter release button isn't pressed and turned to lock it in the release position.
The awkward thing can be to remove the blinds and the large gear, then get it all back together in time (a mismatch of teeth here will allow the camera to wind but not to the correct point, too much to get all speeds, or too little - it can cause the mechanism to jam).
I'd start from the winding knob and make sure it's engaging the gear underneath it, then work along until there's a break in the chain of transferred motion. double check the simple stuff too - such as the shutter release button isn't pressed and turned to lock it in the release position.
radixsrt
Member
I resolved the issue. After lubricating the gears with a diluted solution of the Japanese Launa oil and lighter fluid, the mechanism wheezed back to life!
Highway 61
Revisited
Good !
Yet, you may want to be a bit more concise and post some pics with colored arrows pointed at the parts which cause you problems. This will be more clear for us to understand what's going on exactly. I have serviced several Contax II but I am not too sure, whether I have understood your points well, or not.
Remember : never ever remove the top curtain roller, never ever let the top curtain roller shaft (or rod, whatever you call it) get out of its spindle, or you will be into the desynchronization big problem indeed. Always put a temporary piece of adhesive where it ought to be (up left of the shutter crate) when the shutter unit is taken off the camera body in order to give the shutter some work.
Better than Peter Tooke's opus, there is this (it deals with the FSU Contax clone not the real thing, sure, but apart from a different shutter ribbons thickness this is all the same) :
http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/index.html
The missing light baffle you mention in your first post can be replaced with something you will custom make in a piece of thin brass.
jgrainger
Established
lol.. I go for complete disassembly.. it's certainly fun getting the synchronisation right but there isn't much leeway to be right or wrong, so it could be worse.. like the pin which holds the slow speed escapement wheel/shaft.. I've made and broken a few punches on those (used in a press).
In terms of the Kiev vs Contax, the Kiev's tend to have lower quality screws and there are a ton of shimming washers to get the correct fitment of parts - stick ties through them or put those back in place while parts are off for cleaning.. the Contax is more nicely made but the end result is pretty similar.
radixsrt
Member
Good !
Yet, you may want to be a bit more concise and post some pics with colored arrows pointed at the parts which cause you problems. This will be more clear for us to understand what's going on exactly. I have serviced several Contax II but I am not too sure, whether I have understood your points well, or not.
Remember : never ever remove the top curtain roller, never ever let the top curtain roller shaft (or rod, whatever you call it) get out of its spindle, or you will be into the desynchronization big problem indeed. Always put a temporary piece of adhesive where it ought to be (up left of the shutter crate) when the shutter unit is taken off the camera body in order to give the shutter some work.
Better than Peter Tooke's opus, there is this (it deals with the FSU Contax clone not the real thing, sure, but apart from a different shutter ribbons thickness this is all the same) :
http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/index.html
The missing light baffle you mention in your first post can be replaced with something you will custom make in a piece of thin brass.
Thank you for the detailed info Highway 61.. I know you have quite a bit of experience handling the Contax based on all the Contax threads I have seen on rff! I'll try to get some pictures tonight. After some actuations of the shutter it looks like the speeds are getting closer to what they should be, although I have not replaced the shutter crate into the body and done a full test yet.
Before lubrication, the slow speeds and B would cause the first curtain to move at a reasonable constant speed, but the upper curtain would stick and take quite a while to return naturally to the bottom capped position with the first curtain. After lubrication, the second curtain is starting to follow much more naturally. I think lubrication of the main fly wheel that drives the shutter allowed me to unfreeze the assembly. Also lubrication of the slow speed escapement mechanism of course.
As for the ribbons, they appear to be holding strong at the moment. When I replace the whole assembly, I'll try to actuate the shutter 50-100 times and see how they fare then...
Finally, I'm not sure how to go about fashioning a custom made baffle, or what thickness of brass to use. I may end up getting a Kiev II body and using the baffle from there... as well as keeping it for spare parts down the road. Do you think that without this baffle, if I run a roll of film through the camera, I'll experience a lot of light leaks throughout the corners of each frame?
jgrainger
Established
For the purpose of obtaining a baffle and potential spare parts.. the Kievs most likely to have german parts happen to be the rarest and more valuable earlier examples of the 2 and 3.
I've also found some subtle differences amongst Contax shutter parts, specifically the number of teeth on the most difficult slow speed escape wheel.. Being hand fitted cameras with a lot of parts I'd probably either keep a look out for a parts Contax or (cheaper) to find a parts Kiev 4 which has had the mount removed to make an adaptor for another camera.. parts can sometimes also be individually found.. realistically, the most toubled parts would usually be likely to be the ribbons, rangefinder prism (deterioration), or shutter roller spings (if set to overcompensate for lack of CLA).
I've also found some subtle differences amongst Contax shutter parts, specifically the number of teeth on the most difficult slow speed escape wheel.. Being hand fitted cameras with a lot of parts I'd probably either keep a look out for a parts Contax or (cheaper) to find a parts Kiev 4 which has had the mount removed to make an adaptor for another camera.. parts can sometimes also be individually found.. realistically, the most toubled parts would usually be likely to be the ribbons, rangefinder prism (deterioration), or shutter roller spings (if set to overcompensate for lack of CLA).
radixsrt
Member
Thanks for the response. So do you think that the baffle from the Kiev will not fit into the shutter crate of the Contax? I thought depending on the year of manufacture of the Kiev they would be very closely related to each other, the earlier the better.
Another update, I put the film back plate back on with the shutter unit in the camera and tested the speeds again. It looks like the fast speeds are ok, still not how I want them, and the slow speeds, while not sticking anymore, are still a little slow, but much closer now. 1/1250 was about 1/800~1/900, then it got much slower with 1/500 being around 1/350...etc. One thing to note is that I did not really have a proper rig to set up the tester, so once I get that built my readings will be more accurate.
Another thing to note is that when winding for the slow speeds, it gets very tough to wind. Winding the fast speeds, while not very smooth, is much easier. Definitely needs much more cleaning to be buttery smooth.
I think I'm going to soak the entire shutter crate in lighter fluid for a couple of hours to really get all the deep gunk out, and then lubricate again and evaluate the speeds. My question is, is it safe to submerge the entire assembly all the curtains/rollers/shutter blades still on the shutter crate? (essentially what I'm proposing is to just remove the entire shutter crate from the body and soak it for a couple of hours in lighter fluid.)
TenEleven
Well-known
It looks like you already have done a lot of work and are getting there. I've only serviced two II's myself which really was just taking out the shutter crate, inspecting the ribbons (good on one needed replacement on the other) and cleaning and then re-lubricating the mechanism.
The slow speeds being harder to wind is true for any Contax II in my experience. B is usually the "toughest". There's also surely body-to-body variation as to how stiff it gets. I found that on top of a clean and lube sometimes re-meshing the gears will help a bit, but don't expect miracles.
My favorite Contax II is quite smooth even on the low speeds, but still a bit more resistance than on winding with the 1/1250 speed set.
Highway 61
Revisited
There are no changes in design : the missing light baffle can be replaced by one from a Kiev donor body indeed and your camera will also benefit from some additional foam glued around the top of the film sprockets spindle before you put the film gate frame back on. Without the odd, metallic light baffle and without the additional foam, light leaks are pretty certain. Also, don't forget the light baffle behind the swinging part of the rangefinder. It's easy to re-make it with a larger piece of strong, black paper without compromising the rangefinder function. The original small, paper-like soft material baffle might be shot now. See attached photos which tell this all.
When you wind a Contax II already set on slow speeds, winding engages the whole shutter low speeds geartrain and because of the shutter design the winding motion makes the upper curtain roller turn forward. So it never will be really "buttery smooth".
Read :
http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-92.html
You must not do this. This will damage the tiny, old leather cords which are hidden behind the folded ends of the shutter curtains blades, and which are essential to keep the shutter curtains blades aligned together. Only have the geartrains side of the shutter crate soak in lighter fluid. Don't get the shutter curtains and their spindles soaked.
Attachments
jgrainger
Established
I haven't studied a late Kiev baffle next to a Contax baffle but think the Kiev baffle should fit fine.. I was mostly wondering if you were considering trying to find an early Kiev in the hope of getting as Zeiss-like a part as possible - when a later Kiev 4 part should fit.
Btw, I think Highway 61's latest reply is spot on
radixsrt
Member
Thanks for the info. When I meant buttery smooth I meant that I could wind it without rubbing the skin off of my fingers lol. Yea... I think the slow speed escapement needs more cleaning. Pretty much all speeds except B, 1/2, and 1/5 are more or less fine to wind, but the 3 slowest speeds take quite a toll on my thumb. I'm gonna take the shutter crate out of the camera body and soak the gear mechanism and lubricate again.
One more thing to note, when I wind and cock the shutter, it appears that I am unable to change the shutter speeds... I'm not sure which part of the mechanism is locking this up, I'll have to take a look when I remove the shutter carriage. I can only change the speeds when the shutter is in the uncocked position immediately after an exposure is taken. An interesting thing to note is that in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FYrIvuOzAQ&t=1408s (I speak Russian), the gentleman says that actually setting the shutter speed before winding the shutter is better for preserving the mechanism's health than setting it after the shutter is cocked. Interesting considering many online sources I've looked at state quite the opposite!
Also I ordered a 1956 Kiev II with a Jupiter-8 lens on the cheap from the evil auction site, hopefully it'll have a baffle, and if not, at least I'll have a lens to test the camera with!
Next step after the 3 slowest speeds are functioning without tearing my thumb apart is going to be to remove the helicoid and using some high quality Japanese helicoid lubricant on it. I'll also put in extra light shields around the rangefinder assembly... I'm thinking of using backing paper from some trash exposed 120 roll film I have. After that, I think I'll be ready to run a roll through and see what happens!
radixsrt
Member
Grytpype
Well-known
Regarding your light baffle issue: what is the serial number of your camera? Most Contax (and all Kievs) have two light shields at the front of the mechanism, the main one which covers the rollers, and a second which slides into place under tabs on the main baffle, with a circular section which fits round the focus helical. Early cameras had various differences. I recently rebuilt a 'B' serial Contax which did not have the round baffle - or the tabs on the main baffle to retain it. A 'C' prefix camera had both baffles.
I reassembled the camera with only its original single baffle and had no issues with light leaks on film.
By the way, to remove the main baffle you have to part-wind the mechanism so you can slide the curtain-separating ramp along the flat machined in the second-curtain roller (being very careful not to bend the ramp).
Steve.
I reassembled the camera with only its original single baffle and had no issues with light leaks on film.
By the way, to remove the main baffle you have to part-wind the mechanism so you can slide the curtain-separating ramp along the flat machined in the second-curtain roller (being very careful not to bend the ramp).
Steve.
radixsrt
Member
Bingo Steve... my camera is a B model from 1936. This makes a lot of sense now, as I was wondering how someone could just lose the baffle like that carelessly. Thank you so much for the info.
Philip Whiteman
Well-known
I bought a 1950s Kiev II with the notion of using its shutter assembly in my broken Contax II. Dumb idea - the Kiev is too beautiful to even think of breaking up and I managed to fix the Contax (new ribbons etc) and it works perfectly and is 100% light tight, even without the famous baffle (which the Kiev does have).
I'd recommend replacing the ribbons with the Japanese-made ones (not Kiev ribbon material, note - it's too thick and will stop the shutter working properly)
NB there's an error in the drawing showing the top shutter roller position in the Tooke book. If the cut-out is positioned horizontally as shown, you will not be able to re-install the main shutter box light baffle.
I believe the other error people make is excessive tensioning of the shutter curtains. The two Contax IIs I have fitted with new ribbons both deliver perfect shutter speeds & exposures with only 100g tension on the lower blind. I over-tensioned the first one I did and, although it worked, the wind-on was heavy and harsh and boy did the shutter make a loud noise. With less tension, it became buttery smooth (almost) and matched the feel and sound of a professionally serviced II I kind of bought by accident...
I'd recommend replacing the ribbons with the Japanese-made ones (not Kiev ribbon material, note - it's too thick and will stop the shutter working properly)
NB there's an error in the drawing showing the top shutter roller position in the Tooke book. If the cut-out is positioned horizontally as shown, you will not be able to re-install the main shutter box light baffle.
I believe the other error people make is excessive tensioning of the shutter curtains. The two Contax IIs I have fitted with new ribbons both deliver perfect shutter speeds & exposures with only 100g tension on the lower blind. I over-tensioned the first one I did and, although it worked, the wind-on was heavy and harsh and boy did the shutter make a loud noise. With less tension, it became buttery smooth (almost) and matched the feel and sound of a professionally serviced II I kind of bought by accident...
Highway 61
Revisited
Good point. On the Contax II shutter, once the geartrains have been cleaned and gently relubed and new ribbons installed, there is enough tension at the bottom roller spindle spring as far as the shutter doesn't travel closed at 1/1250s. The less the better and yes, a shutter that clunks heavily at high speeds and is hard to wind at slow speeds and B very likely has an overtensioned (and probably damaged) spring.
That common overtensioning is probably why so many bottom roller spindle springs look like a pop-star haircut now. We Contax II fondlers and users are very lucky that the Kiev exists. Unless...
radixsrt
Member
Finally got my test roll back and... looks pretty decent! No premature capping, no light leaks. The shutter appears to be exposing and moving relatively correctly and evenly along the entire frame... maybe the 2nd curtain is moving somewhat fast. I think you guys are right, Philip Whiteman and Highway 61, the lower shutter roller is most likely over tensioned. I'm going to attempt to decrease the tension sometime this week. I'll have to look over Maizenberg's book again to figure out how many turns to play around with and what to adjust.
Only other issue appears to be on some exposures there's a very small line running near the top of the frame. I'm guessing that the film is being scratched somewhere during its movement. I'll be sure to clean the back plate where the film is pressed down. Overall though I'm very content with the results, and lately I've been finding myself to be more drawn to the Contax than my M4
Here are the links to a couple of the photos, the white line is visible clearly on the yellow door:
https://ibb.co/qkGDVBF
https://ibb.co/nwWcHct
https://ibb.co/dQHmGG1
https://ibb.co/pWP0z7r
https://ibb.co/M2pFq8p
Only other issue appears to be on some exposures there's a very small line running near the top of the frame. I'm guessing that the film is being scratched somewhere during its movement. I'll be sure to clean the back plate where the film is pressed down. Overall though I'm very content with the results, and lately I've been finding myself to be more drawn to the Contax than my M4
Here are the links to a couple of the photos, the white line is visible clearly on the yellow door:
https://ibb.co/qkGDVBF
https://ibb.co/nwWcHct
https://ibb.co/dQHmGG1
https://ibb.co/pWP0z7r
https://ibb.co/M2pFq8p