Cordiality and lack thereof...

[rayfoxlee]

...............and yet, I talked to a retailer (he runs a small retail/camera museum) in southern England a couple of weeks ago who says that he is getting many buyers from the digital fraternity. Talking up his market? Perhaps, but as someone who shoots both and prefers film cameras to the DSLRs, I'm inclined to believe that he really is finding that demand is increasing. His small shop in Arundel was busy - 5 people make a full shop!

Who knows? Shoot film as long as it lasts, film will be made as long as long as we shoot.....................

Ray

 

[bmattock]

...............and yet, I talked to a retailer (he runs a small retail/camera museum) in southern England a couple of weeks ago who says that he is getting many buyers from the digital fraternity. Talking up his market? Perhaps, but as someone who shoots both and prefers film cameras to the DSLRs, I'm inclined to believe that he really is finding that demand is increasing. His small shop in Arundel was busy - 5 people make a full shop!

In Detroit, four of the big five camera stores are gone now. Adray is gone, and it was a staple forever.

http://www.adraycamera.com/

The one that is left did see an upsurge in business, but it's back down now. It's all anecdotal, but when the big camera stores go under, it usually doesn't mean good things. And Kodak and Fujifilm continue to report declining sales; Japan's CIPA doesn't even track them anymore. That does not sound like demand is increasing to me.

 

[wgerrard]

...............and yet, I talked to a retailer (he runs a small retail/camera museum) in southern England a couple of weeks ago who says that he is getting many buyers from the digital fraternity.

We've seen a number of posts citing similar anecdotes. Difficult to tell if they represent something real, but one indicator would be someone's release of a new film camera to cash in on all the perceived film and used camera enthusiasm. And a real camera, not a plastic thingie that takes distorted images.

 

[sevo]

Vinyl LP's do not really compare to film / digital either. There have only been a handful of film manufacturers but there were thousands of LP manufacturers in the US. There were dozens in any city of size.

There were what? You are mixing up cutting and pressing - there were dozens of audio recording studios in every city, and before tape, acetates were their regular medium - but there were dozens of photographers as well. Recording studios do not manufacture acetates any more than photographers make film...

While vinyl pressing plants may have outnumbered film casting lines by a magnitude or so, we are talking maybe a thousand vs. a hundred world-wide - all Germany had maybe ten film manufacturers vs. some twenty pressing plants in the heydays of film and vinyl, and is down to two or three each by now.

 

[ferider]

We've seen a number of posts citing similar anecdotes. Difficult to tell if they represent something real, but one indicator would be someone's release of a new film camera to cash in on all the perceived film and used camera enthusiasm. And a real camera, not a plastic thingie that takes distorted images.

Do Bessas count ?

 

[wgerrard]

Do Bessas count ?

I don't think so. They aren't marketed in mainstream channels (you can't buy a Bessa at Ritz or Best Buy). They seem designed to take advantage of the very small number of people looking for cheaper Leica-like cameras.

And the anecdotal reports of young people getting into film are rather recent.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I don't think so. They aren't marketed in mainstream channels (you can't buy a Bessa at Ritz or Best Buy). They seem designed to take advantage of the very small number of people looking for cheaper Leica-like cameras.

And the anecdotal reports of young people getting into film are rather recent.

Dear Bill,

How recent? I've been hearing 'em for a decade. Of course I cannot verify that the people who tell me these stories are telling me anything other than what they want to believe.

Cheers,

R.

 

[gho]

Dear Bill,

How recent? I've been hearing 'em for a decade. Of course I cannot verify that the people who tell me these stories are telling me anything other than what they want to believe.

Cheers,

R.

These poor dreamers ;-). However, recently I found myself arguing for digital while shooting film. 2 young ladies approached me independently, trying to educate me about the benefits of shooting film. I told one of them: see, I can afford the luxury of shooting film, but what if you are a professional press photographer with a tight deadline? She told me about a press photographer that she knew, who refuses to shoot digital for what reason howsoever. I told her with a gloomy voice: he will be converted soon. Unfortunately this ended the conversation.

This is just one instance. I had a lot of contact with young people shooting film, at least here in Berlin. On the opposite I saw an old guy wandering the streets with a G1 and kit lens. *shrugs*

Ahh, yes I forgot, and Polaroid is very sexy .

Cordially yours.

 

[ferider]

I don't think so. They aren't marketed in mainstream channels (you can't buy a Bessa at Ritz or Best Buy). They seem designed to take advantage of the very small number of people looking for cheaper Leica-like cameras.

The mainstream channel has changed in the last 5 years, IMO. All Ritz/Wolf stores in my neighborhood have disappeared, and our BestBuys have only tiny camera sections compared to, say, games. Most cameras are bought online these days, digital or film, new or used, so one can not really correlate the interest in film with the existence of camera stores.

Agree of course, Bessas target a nieche, but it seems growing. Much larger possibly than it ever was, due to ebay and online stores, is the used camera market, with a major share being film gear. Why does a used Leica M6 still cost US 1k ?

 

[wgerrard]

Dear Bill,

How recent? I've been hearing 'em for a decade. Of course I cannot verify that the people who tell me these stories are telling me anything other than what they want to believe.

Cheers,

R.

I've only been aware of them for the last year or two, so I'll defer to your experience.

However, if interest in film has been building for a decade, then my question is even more on point: Where are the new film cameras?

 

[wgerrard]

Agree of course, Bessas target a nieche, but it seems growing. Much larger possibly than it ever was, due to ebay and online stores, is the used camera market, with a major share being film gear. Why does a used Leica M6 still cost US 1k ?

I hope more Bessa's are selling. I like them, and I like film. Used Leica's are very much in demand. I hope all that bodes well for film. I wonder, though, if all the Bessa sales and all the old camera sales are enough to sustain mainstream film production. I hope it is, but I have my doubts.

 

[ferider]

I did like the fountain pen comparison the other day. I do believe film is as cheap as it is now, and with a spectrum of new films available, due to digital competition; however, it will increase in price eventually. Hopefully not too crazy though, at least not soon, since traditional manufacturing will first be moved to "lower cost geographies", and then modified, to allow for more effective fabrication of smaller batches .... We'll see. In the mean-time I enjoy it, have my freezer full, and try to do my part of the manufacturer/consumer equation.

Then again, when it becomes really expensive in 5-10 years, there will also be affordable digital full frame cameras with at least 16bit/pixel DR, so why worry now ?

 

[semilog]

In Detroit, four of the big five camera stores are gone now. Adray is gone, and it was a staple forever.

http://www.adraycamera.com/

The one that is left did see an upsurge in business, but it's back down now. It's all anecdotal, but when the big camera stores go under, it usually doesn't mean good things. And Kodak and Fujifilm continue to report declining sales; Japan's CIPA doesn't even track them anymore. That does not sound like demand is increasing to me.

In the context of the present discussion this strikes me as a nonsequitor. People still buy cameras, but they get them from Newegg or Amazon or Costco. That has to do with a global change in retail, not the death of film.

 

[wgerrard]

In the context of the present discussion this strikes me as a nonsequitor. People still buy cameras, but they get them from Newegg or Amazon or Costco. That has to do with a global change in retail, not the death of film.

Just checked all three sites. Didn't see any new film cameras for sale at Newegg or Costco. Amazon offers Holgas and Lomos, and Bessas and the FM10 and F6 via affiiliates, plus the M7 from their own stock..

 

[semilog]

Just checked all three sites. Didn't see any new film cameras for sale at Newegg or Costco. Amazon offers Holgas and Lomos, and Bessas and the FM10 and F6 via affiiliates, plus the M7 from their own stock..

This is true, but there are plenty of internet vendors for film cameras. The number of places to buy a film camera is vastly larger than when I bought my first Nikons two decades ago. The used market is simply vast.

 

[wgerrard]

This is true, but there are plenty of internet vendors for film cameras. The number of places to buy a film camera is vastly larger than when I bought my first Nikons two decades ago. The used market is simply vast.

Yes, but the supply of used cameras is, by definition, limited. If, contrary to reports from the film manufacturers, a resurgence of interest in film is underway, logically, if it is large enough then someone will roll out a new film camera. If the alleged resurgence isn't large enough, then no one will.

Personally, I think that resurgence, assuming it is real, is, at best, a very, very tiny blip on an otherwise descending sales chart.

 

[shadowfox]

There's every chance that an established photo store has already eliminated or rolled back film because it wasn't making money for them. What incentive do they have to reverse course? Better to turn the space over to more digital equipment.

Large population centers might be able to support one or two well-established stores that sell film and have a rack of used cameras. One such store exists in my town, where it sells to an established base of film customers. But, if that store was opening anew, they couldn't afford to locate in their current building, they'd rent space in a mall or shopping strip, they would not have an established cluster of film customers and a bunch of used hardware accumulated over years and years, and almost certainly would go entirely digital.

Film is not a cause for retailers.

Bill, an accurate analysis of the current situation. And in a way, I am banking on it

 

[sjw617]

There were what? You are mixing up cutting and pressing - there were dozens of audio recording studios in every city, and before tape, acetates were their regular medium - but there were dozens of photographers as well. Recording studios do not manufacture acetates any more than photographers make film...

While vinyl pressing plants may have outnumbered film casting lines by a magnitude or so, we are talking maybe a thousand vs. a hundred world-wide - all Germany had maybe ten film manufacturers vs. some twenty pressing plants in the heydays of film and vinyl, and is down to two or three each by now.

"Back in the day" in the USA there were many mom and pop record pressing operations. They had a press or two and could produce thousands of LP's a week. There were also,of course, large scale operations. There are still 4 pressing plants in the NYC area. I doubt small operations are still left.